Germany bans unvaccinated from shops and pubs.

[Ratched]

We really are going to end up with a two tier society. It's actually quite worrying.

I am NOT anti vaxx, just concerned at how we are sleep walking into giving away our hard won freedoms.

@nojudgementhere

I really don't think it needs to be explained again though?

It trivilises and belittles the suffering of the Jewish people in the Holocaust and it is often invoked by groups who either do not care a jot about anti-Semitism in everyday life (only when it suits them) or are actively anti-Semitic themselves.

Many Jewish leaders have written about this.

The trend is the latest instance of people, generally but not only on the political right, equating public health mandates they don’t like to the Holocaust — a practice that anti-Semitism watchdogs and Holocaust scholars have repeatedly condemned. In the past, anti-lockdown activists have compared COVID-related public health restrictions to the Holocaust. In 2019, before the pandemic, some anti-vaccine activists compared themselves to Jews suffering under the Nazis, also by appropriating yellow stars.

“To compare COVID-19 rules to the slaughter of millions in the Holocaust is disgusting, wrong and has no place in our society,” Anti-Defamation League CEO Jonathan Greenblatt tweeted last year.

From the Jersusalem Post.

Anti-Semitic crime has increased significantly during the course of the pandemic - and so if persecution of Jewish people is genuinely something people care about it would be better actively work with groups on this, rather than just throwing out comparisons that hurt the community further.

@riveted1 - I can see your point & I would never use that comparison myself as I would never want to minimise their horrendous suffering.

I think people are genuinely distressed though about what they see happening in Austria, Germany and Australia. Things seems to have gone down a dark path so quickly & I think people use the comparison because they feel disturbed, powerless and as though they are shouting into a void and nobody is listening to them.

I saw earlier, that in Austria, men have been encouraged to get the vaccine by offering them a free visit to a brothel afterwards. How can this be deemed acceptable in a modern day democracy? I find it absolutely repellent. Also what are your thoughts on how the unvaccinated in Austria were allowed to go and work in public places like cafes during their lockdown but weren't allowed to go and visit them as a customer as they were deemed too much of a health risk? It's the lack of logic and respect in decisions like this that have set people on edge and made them feel incredibly under threat. If people aren't looking at the precedents that are currently being set, and aren't asking why our leaders are not condeming them, then there's something very wrong.

I saw earlier, that in Austria, men have been encouraged to get the vaccine by offering them a free visit to a brothel afterwards. How can this be deemed acceptable in a modern day democracy?

I don't see a problem with incentives as long as they can't be considered coercive (i.e., a huge sum of money that someone in poverty couldn't afford to turn down) HOWEVER i find that specific sceanrio hideous because of my views of sex work & the exploitation of vulnerable people.

Also what are your thoughts on how the unvaccinated in Austria were allowed to go and work in public places like cafes during their lockdown but weren't allowed to go and visit them as a customer as they were deemed too much of a health risk? It's the lack of logic and respect in decisions like this that have set people on edge and made them feel incredibly under threat.

Also what are your thoughts on how the unvaccinated in Austria were allowed to go and work in public places like cafes during their lockdown but weren't allowed to go and visit them as a customer as they were deemed too much of a health risk?
Yes I personally disagree with these specific mandates as I don't think they'll have a huge impact of tranmssion.

However Germany is in a really dangerous place right now - they need to increase vaccination and decrease cases as a matter of urgency as otherwise it will cost lives- there isn't going to be an ideal solution to this.

Thank you, @riveted1 - I think it is always helpful to use a direct quote when possible.

I am not Jewish and will not speculate about how a hypothetical Jewish person might feel about a certain scenario.

I am part of three minority groups (one is an ethnic group; I am also an out lesbian and severely, noticeably disabled with no option of hiding my disabilities) which were targeted for erasure during the Holocaust, and I can say that from that personal perspective, I find such comparisons very troubling and also distressing.

@Innocenta

Thank you, *@riveted1* - I think it is always helpful to use a direct quote when possible.

I am not Jewish and will not speculate about how a hypothetical Jewish person might feel about a certain scenario.

I am part of three minority groups (one is an ethnic group; I am also an out lesbian and severely, noticeably disabled with no option of hiding my disabilities) which were targeted for erasure during the Holocaust, and I can say that from that personal perspective, I find such comparisons very troubling and also distressing.

Sorry, the middle paragraph was a reply to @nojudgementhere - failed to tag. Apologies.

@Innocenta - I am sorry that you find the comparisons troubling and distressing. I find the way that people are being segregated, othered and treated as second-class citizens in Austria very distressing too. I'm a little surprised and disappointed that you don't.

How can you possibly be surprised that I'm pro-mandate when voluntary uptake is insufficient, @nojudgementhere? I've consistently stated my point of view throughout this thread (and on others).

@Innocenta - I'm not surprised that you're pro-mandate but I suppose I am a little surprised at your seeming inability to put yourself in the shoes of people who are currently being scapegoated and oppressed as you are obviously a very bright person. I feel sympathy for the way you have been mistreated in the past as part of minority groups and find it difficult to see how you can not apply the way you felt in that postion to the way these other people are feeling now? This is honestly not meant to be a personal attack on you & hope it doesn't come across as such. Anyway, must go and walk the dog but will read your reply later with interest!

Yep we definitely need more mandatory masking & vaccine passports like the Germans.

I’ve read the whole thread finally. Both sides of the argument seem to be motivated predominantly by fear.

I support vaccine mandates = fear.
I don’t support vaccine mandates = fear.

Just an observation.

The obvious answer to all this is just have the vaccine....it's not a big deal.

@SLH2003

The obvious answer to all this is just have the vaccine....it's not a big deal.

The obvious answer to all this is that withholding simple places like shops from people who aren't vaccinated is coercion, and ultimately a very slippery slope.

Bodily autonomy is so important. More important than stopping people who may be more likely to carry Covid from spreading it, I'd say. It'll all go tits up in the end... Slippery, slippery slope

@Booklover3

I’ve read the whole thread finally. Both sides of the argument seem to be motivated predominantly by fear.

I support vaccine mandates = fear.
I don’t support vaccine mandates = fear.

Just an observation.

Covid is fear. Which is justified, but a fear.

The right to make a decision about what goes into your own body isn't, it's very sensible

Bodily autonomy is so important. More important than stopping people who may be more likely to carry Covid from spreading it, I'd say.

Yes, kill a few people along the way, inflict lifelong lung and organ damage on another unlucky few... and keep this pandemic rolling on for months and years longer than it needs to at high volume.

The right to make a decision about what goes into your own body isn't, it's very sensible

Don't be silly. People with limited critical ability who have swallowed without chewing all sorts of nonsense are not 'sensible' at all.

@milkyaqua

The right to make a decision about what goes into your own body isn't, it's very sensible

Don't be silly. People with limited critical ability who have swallowed without chewing all sorts of nonsense are not 'sensible' at all.

Again, that's their choice to make. If they don't want a vaccine with absolutely no risk beyond a minuscule percentage then that's their call to make

@milkyaqua

Bodily autonomy is so important. More important than stopping people who may be more likely to carry Covid from spreading it, I'd say.

Yes, kill a few people along the way, inflict lifelong lung and organ damage on another unlucky few... and keep this pandemic rolling on for months and years longer than it needs to at high volume.

I've had all my jabs and don't fancy Covid. But you know what? I bet I'll still be getting jabbed for the 5th or 6th time, probably more

So it won't end anyway. I'm okay with that as I see it like I do the flu jab that I get every year, just something I have. However, that's my own choice

You mean no risk to those taking the vaccine, apart from a very miniscule percentage? That would be correct.

Insulting peoples intelligence as tour argument simply devalues it, quite literally making you a victim of your own insult.

@Kshhuxnxk

Insulting peoples intelligence as tour argument simply devalues it, quite literally making you a victim of your own insult.

Is this directed at me?

I think proudly declaring it is more important to have bodily autonomy even if it means infecting other people with a virus that has killed 5 million plus worldwide is despicable.

Taking the high ground and declaring yourself 'sensible' and those who are concerned by Covid waves in Germany etc as run by 'fear' is also pretty despicable.

But if you are cool with killing people, YMMV.

The reality is we dont enjoy full bodily autonomy. If you think differently try selling a kidney, or prostituing yourself. There's are curbs on our bodily autonomy to protect us from exploitation, which is why we dont wait til children are Gillick competent before vaccinating them, or why medication can be forced on people with severe mental illnesses.

So the arguement here should be is it proportionate to force covid vaccination on the section of the population that dont want it. I would argue it's not (and the practicalities make it doomed to fail even if think it is). I have no problem with upping people's health or travel insurance if they refuse it though, or circumscribing their movements at times of high virus surges (esp as it's usually anti vaxxers who also wont wear masks or social distance).