Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

I'm not a covid denier. I know people who have tested positive. It's real. It's just a low risk overall.
I KNOW people die. Even people my age or younger, people who are healthier than me. I do know that. And it's sad, for them & their loved ones. But they are in the minority. Most people come through just fine. If that wasn't the case then a hell of a lot more people would have died over the last couple of years. Even before vaccines.

I only speak for myself, answering op as an individual. They asked for reasons why and so I have given mine. Others will have different reasons. But for me the risk is tiny and so I don't believe I need the jab, a jab which doesn't even stop you getting it or passing it on or dying from it.

mumwon you speak my language. I completely agree with your point.

However, I think the conversation around the vaccine needs to change. I've had the vaccine and booster am currently recovering from Covid. The number of people who told me"I would be okay because I "had the vaccine" was ridiculous. I was quite sick. The vaccine may have lessened my symptoms but the weekend I got it I had been on a train where literally no-one was wearing a mask. The vaccine has given a false sense of security and it's clear, it may not protect against different strains. People who choose to dig their heads in the sand, I think are in denial or have mental problems. I don't know any sensible people who haven't had it and the 2 people I know who haven't and are covid deniers definitely aren't well people. I think we need to accept this.

@Tana433

I suggest you stop believing everything you read. Make your own decisions and let others do the same. The world would be a much better place.

So you agree then, that if some people decide not to have the vaccine, other people (like doctors and nurses) can perfectly well make decisions not to treat them or allow them to access ICU?

This honestly must be one of the daftest posts I’ve ever seen on MN.

@Dogknowsbest what a very patronising post. The fact that someone hasnt had this jab does not make them covid deniers or mentally unwell, they have just weighed up the pros and cons and decided it is not for them. That is all, no conspiricy theory necessary.

I don’t consider myself an anti-vaxxer but if you’d genuinely like an insight into what someone is thinking regarding what it’d take to have the covid vaccine then I can offer you some ideas;

1. I had covid last October pre-jabs. Was nothing more than a 3/4 day hangover type illness. No need at the time to use any kind of healthcare facility and no reason to expect that on the off chance I caught it again that i’d need any healthcare assistance the next time.
2. I fundamentally object to being all but forced/coerced into injecting something into my body or that of my DC by the removal of travel or domestic freedom if I fail to comply.
3. Too many unknowns about the current vaccines, many reported side effects. Rushed approval. News that there were so few children involved in the 5-11 testing that they can’t be certain if it’s completely safe and so are setting up a 5 year POST approval safety follow up study! Simply not acceptable, pandemic or not.
4. Personally, I have ongoing menstrual cycle issues since the Pfizer jab. Nobody can solve or explain to me why I now have at least 2 cycles per month ever since I was vaccinated (100% regular as clockwork right up to the jab) and I am unwilling to have any further vaccines.
5. Not everybody of every age is vulnerable to covid, the vaccines don’t stop spread and so the argument for every last person to be continually vaccinated is weak.
6. We were told that vaccines were the way out and we’d get to live our lives again. That appears to be about as far from reality as you could get and now we are told that boosters are the way through. But what about when they wane?
7. Has there actually been any extensive testing of more than 2 doses?
8. Vaccination is a medical choice. Everyone should be entitled to freedom of choice and not discriminated against because of that choice. Just like a smoker isn’t denied treatment, an unvaccinated covid patient shouldn’t be denied treatment either. The vast majority of the population got vaccinated as asked and the number of unvaccinated really isn’t that large. Most age groups over 30 are close to 95% if not higher. Please note that some patients eligible for boosters are now considered unvaccinated unless boostered and vaccinated people are not counted as vaccinated unless they are 2 weeks both jabs. These two data collection processes skew figures.

Whether you agree with any of the above or not is irrelevant but you asked to understand the reasons behind vaccine hesitantly and here are some possible reasons.

[quote Tana433]@Dogknowsbest what a very patronising post. The fact that someone hasnt had this jab does not make them covid deniers or mentally unwell, they have just weighed up the pros and cons and decided it is not for them. That is all, no conspiricy theory necessary.[/quote]
So as I said above, is it fine for a doctor to weigh it up and decide that on balance they don’t feel like treating a vaccine refuser is for them?

Or is it just that you’re a hypocrite, and think that other people are there just to pick you up and make you better if you get ill, no matter what you happen to think you feel like doing?

What about the doctors and nurses who decide not to get the jabs? With all their medical knowledge and experience, are they uninformed and wrong and selfish etc too? Or are the jabbed doctors and nurses allowed to make their own choices?

Anti-vaxers are airheads.

@obvyNC

Firstly, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. Myself and my kids have had every vaccine going, just not the covid ones.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU?

Well I don't and I'm not exactly sure why I need to? Do people reconcile their attitudes before going for a drunken night out? Before going down a ski-slope? Before getting in their cars? Before getting pregnant? Why are you drawing the line with this specific thing?

I also don't expect to need an ITU bed. I mean, I have more expectation of an ITU bed when I get in a car. All these twenty year olds in the ITU dying, you have to wonder what their BMI is considering it's the second biggest contributory factor after age. With a healthy weight in my twenties, I'd have to be even more unlucky to end up there as I would getting into a major road collision. I loose sleep over neither.

If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

Why would they do this when they don't do it for any other "your own fault" reason? And yes I absolutely would still refuse and continue to go about my life as normal.

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

I'd probably take a vaccine that wasn't RNA. I heard the Novavax was the same mechanism as the HPV? If so, I'd maybe get that once it's approved. I don't know. There's something strange about Covid, which could be due to the fact it's possibly probably man made, so I don't know, I'd decide when the time came.

It's always been my plan to get the Novavax (if it is the same as HPV which I heard it was) but all the nonsense and hysteria surrounding these vaccines has made me more cynical as the time goes on. I 100% support it for anyone who is even slightly higher risk. Encouraged all my elderly relatives to get it. But A) I don't really see the point at all for anyone with a younger age and healthy bmi and no health issues, and B) even if I did see a slight point, I'd still be sickened at the fact we're vaccinating all of those people before the rest of the world has even done their vulnerable population. It's absolutely fucking atrocious to be honest, and I do genuinely feel sick to my stomach every time I hear a person in the 30s with no health or weight problems screaming for their booster.

Hope that helped OP

If you don't want an mRNA vaccine then why not get the Astra Zeneca or J&J?

[quote Tana433]@Dogknowsbest what a very patronising post. The fact that someone hasnt had this jab does not make them covid deniers or mentally unwell, they have just weighed up the pros and cons and decided it is not for them. That is all, no conspiricy theory necessary.[/quote]
Exactly.

Can we have a link to the local news article OP?

@foxgoosefinch You cant have been on MN very long if mine is the daftest post you have seen. Ive seen dafter just in this thread. Where do you suggest this ends. Smokers not being treated for lung cancer, obese not treated for heart disease, alcoholics not treated for liver disease? Every thing you do in life is a risk, you do not get to decide who is 'worthy' of treatment and who isnt.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

What about the doctors and nurses who decide not to get the jabs? With all their medical knowledge and experience, are they uninformed and wrong and selfish etc too? Or are the jabbed doctors and nurses allowed to make their own choices?

Should've said "are only the jabbed doctors and nurses allowed to make their own choices"

[quote Tana433]@foxgoosefinch You cant have been on MN very long if mine is the daftest post you have seen. Ive seen dafter just in this thread. Where do you suggest this ends. Smokers not being treated for lung cancer, obese not treated for heart disease, alcoholics not treated for liver disease? Every thing you do in life is a risk, you do not get to decide who is 'worthy' of treatment and who isnt.[/quote]
Ah, so you are just a hypocrite, then.

Silly platitudes are not wisdom. Selfishness and complacency are not “lifestyle choices”.

I think it's wrong to call people who don't want the covid vaccine anti vaxxers because they aren't ,they just don't want this vaccine and I think it's absolutely their choice . An alcoholic , a drug overdose a sports injury goes into hospital and is treated if need be and they are in there through their lifestyle choices I certainly don't think they should not be treated .

@whywouldntyou - this thread has been up for 3 hours now... I'm really surprised it hasn't got taken down. IMO you have a genuinely disturbed soul and mind, seek help.
Dear MN moderators... how is this helping anyone?? Fuelling divide and aggression. You were much quicker taking down a thread earlier this weekend trying to discuss genuine evidence about heart issues caused by the jab!!!

I am not na antivaxxer but pay national insurance and taxes and are entitled to nhs treatment so I expect they will see me even if I am not vaccinated and never use the NHS anyway.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Stop with the comparison to the flu jab.
In a bad year even with vaccines we loose about 17000 to flu. If we had carried on without the vaccine we could have lost around 365000.

Having the Jab Reduces the risk of everything . So think of it mathematically. Less spread , less risk of serious illness .

Of. Course you are entitled to carry on in your own world and chose not to have thee vaccine , but please stop spreading falsehoods.

[quote mrsnoname]@whywouldntyou - this thread has been up for 3 hours now... I'm really surprised it hasn't got taken down. IMO you have a genuinely disturbed soul and mind, seek help.
Dear MN moderators... how is this helping anyone?? Fuelling divide and aggression. You were much quicker taking down a thread earlier this weekend trying to discuss genuine evidence about heart issues caused by the jab!!![/quote]
I was thinking the same thing. I asked for a link and was waiting to see if it would be provided (although I doubt it).

All the name calling and derogatory comments are just plain nasty.

I don't think this thread is going to be applicable to many people. I am not anti 'vaxx' having had all of my childhood vaccinations. I am sure many people are the same. Surely it is aimed at those who are 'anti' all vaccines.

Tana43 if I'm so wrong why do you care what I think?

[quote Unsure33]@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Stop with the comparison to the flu jab.
In a bad year even with vaccines we loose about 17000 to flu. If we had carried on without the vaccine we could have lost around 365000.

Having the Jab Reduces the risk of everything . So think of it mathematically. Less spread , less risk of serious illness .

Of. Course you are entitled to carry on in your own world and chose not to have thee vaccine , but please stop spreading falsehoods.[/quote]
I compared it to the flu jab because flu affects people who are vulnerable to covid too. If people are so concerned about protecting the vulnerable then why aren't we being coerced and bullied into taking the flu jab too? So I think the comparison is fine. And we don't "know" with absolute certainty that that nber of people would've died without the vaccines, that is just silly. The virus became milder, there were fewer people vulnerable because they had either died already of that or the other inesses that made them vulnerable (helped along by the NHS not opening fully to patients who needed it because covid took priority over everything) and some people took responsibility for their health and became healthier.

What if you’re an anti vaxxer and had covid only mildly? Are you allowed to be an anti vaxxer then?
This happened to a friend of mine. She thinks covid is all exaggerated and it’s just a flu. Her own experience validated that for her in her head.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

I'm not a covid denier. I know people who have tested positive. It's real. It's just a low risk overall. I KNOW people die. Even people my age or younger, people who are healthier than me. I do know that. And it's sad, for them & their loved ones. But they are in the minority. Most people come through just fine. If that wasn't the case then a hell of a lot more people would have died over the last couple of years. Even before vaccines.

I only speak for myself, answering op as an individual. They asked for reasons why and so I have given mine. Others will have different reasons. But for me the risk is tiny and so I don't believe I need the jab, a jab which doesn't even stop you getting it or passing it on or dying from it.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Even IF your chance of getting it & dying from it are as low as you seem to think (they're not) you've admitted people younger & healthier than you have died & that it IS a risk.

I know you keep saying you don't think you need it... (the vaccine)

Why won't you get the vaccine that will make your risk even lower?

Other than your 'stance' what have you got to lose by getting the vaccination?

This is silly. Why do smokers think they should be treated for lung cancer, why do obese people think they should be treated for diabetes, why should drug users be revived by doctors. The list is endless.

You could go a step further and then start saying why are car owners who get into accidents treated in hospital despite knowingly putting themselves at risk by being on the road.

The list is endless really.

Just because someone is unvaccinated doesn't automatically make them antivax.