Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

[whywouldntyou]

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

Well I am not an anti vaxxer but I would still want a 22 year old healthy unvaccinated person treated in ICU in priority to a 95 year old very fragile fully vaccinated/boosted person… the systems/ethical framework for making those choices are already in place.

Surely you would agree that a 55 year old diabetic obese man with a cancer history refusing a vaccine is a different issue for society than a 16 year old with no health conditions refusing a vaccine? You really cannot generalise.
My personal view is that Covid vaccines should be mandatory for anyone over 50. Everyone else should be strongly encouraged to have them too.

[quote Raaaaaaarr]@Bluepinkyellowcakes I really don't even know where to start with most of what you have said on this thread to be honest. Most of your research is internet based. This isn't research I am afraid. The 'it won't get me' attitude is actually pretty selfish also. It may cause you serious illness (yes you despite thinking you're out of the age, weight range etc) and the chances of this only increase as you avoid the vaccine and allow this virus to continue to mutate. [/quote]
Is there proof that viruses don't mutate in vaccinated people then? I didn't know that.

I know it could "get me" but as I've said it's a low low risk I'm happy to take. Not selfish.

Is there proof that viruses don't mutate in vaccinated people then? I didn't know that.

It seems that you have completely misunderstood what Raaaaarrr was saying if that’s your response!

I also have a close relative who is a doctor, she says that if you’re judgemental, medicine isn’t the career for you.

Sounds like it would be a good idea. When do we start ?

@Bluepinkyellowcakes I'm sorry I can't continue this conversation with you. I am open mouthed at what you are saying as it's lacking so much basic logic. Please enjoy continuing your discussion with others on this thread.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said 'right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

I've also had both jabs and will have booster. I often think about vaccine reluctant people and how they feel if they need hospital treatment, and genuinely did think 'Perhaps they shouldn't have treatment', but then it clicked that this is really unhealthy, horrid way of thinking - I have been a heavy drinker in my youth, a rugby player, overweight, safe driver but a speeder etc, and luckily never needed medical treatment, but imagine I did and was told I shouldn't get help because it was my own fault!

I also had two home births, the second of which I developed complications after the birth and needed to be transferred to hospital - imagine if I was not eligible because I had chosen a home birth...

I just think we shouldn't refuse medical help to anyone, for any reason.

It's a personal choice, based on people deciding for themselves what risk level they are happy exposing other, potentially more vulnerable people to there you go, fixed that sentence for you…

@chipsandgin

It's a personal choice, based on people deciding for themselves what risk level they are happy exposing other, potentially more vulnerable people to there you go, fixed that sentence for you…

It didn't need fixing. The question from the op was to individuals and I answer as an individual. I give my own personal reasons for not wanting the jab. Do you think people should have the flu jab then to avoid exposing vulnerable people to that?

If people have the jab and have a bad reaction that needs treatment are they selfishly taking up NHS beds?

Firstly, I'm not an anti-vaxxer. Myself and my kids have had every vaccine going, just not the covid ones.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU?

Well I don't and I'm not exactly sure why I need to? Do people reconcile their attitudes before going for a drunken night out? Before going down a ski-slope? Before getting in their cars? Before getting pregnant? Why are you drawing the line with this specific thing?

I also don't expect to need an ITU bed. I mean, I have more expectation of an ITU bed when I get in a car. All these twenty year olds in the ITU dying, you have to wonder what their BMI is considering it's the second biggest contributory factor after age. With a healthy weight in my twenties, I'd have to be even more unlucky to end up there as I would getting into a major road collision. I loose sleep over neither.

If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

Why would they do this when they don't do it for any other "your own fault" reason? And yes I absolutely would still refuse and continue to go about my life as normal.

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

I'd probably take a vaccine that wasn't RNA. I heard the Novavax was the same mechanism as the HPV? If so, I'd maybe get that once it's approved. I don't know. There's something strange about Covid, which could be due to the fact it's possibly probably man made, so I don't know, I'd decide when the time came.

It's always been my plan to get the Novavax (if it is the same as HPV which I heard it was) but all the nonsense and hysteria surrounding these vaccines has made me more cynical as the time goes on. I 100% support it for anyone who is even slightly higher risk. Encouraged all my elderly relatives to get it. But A) I don't really see the point at all for anyone with a younger age and healthy bmi and no health issues, and B) even if I did see a slight point, I'd still be sickened at the fact we're vaccinating all of those people before the rest of the world has even done their vulnerable population. It's absolutely fucking atrocious to be honest, and I do genuinely feel sick to my stomach every time I hear a person in the 30s with no health or weight problems screaming for their booster.

Hope that helped OP

To be clear, no I don't think people suffering bad reaction needing treatment are selfishly taking an NHS bed. I don't think anyone who hasnt had the jab and needs care is selfish either. The NHS is there to treat anyone who needs it, as other posters pointed out even people hurt hurting others, or who have smoked themselves ill. It's a service we all pay for that is there to be used, it isn't a charity that we should feel bad for using.
The most important thing we can do for ourselves and indeed the NHS is to get ourselves as fit and healthy as we can, and yes this level will also vary according to individuals own abilities. But if we all did that there would be less pressure on these people who chose to do this job and are paid to do it. They aren't treating you for nothing, it's their job, a choice they made.

Do you think people should have the flu jab then to avoid exposing vulnerable people to that?
Yes I do and so does the NHS which is why younger children routinely have the nasal flu vaccination and this year all schoolchildren are being offered it.

I'm surprised there is so much detail on your local news about the ins and outs of ITU

What they often forget to mention it's that most people in ITU are fat

Well surely if you don’t exercise (and are capable) eat junk food, drink booze and smoke then you shouldn’t get treated then either?

Lost a friend last week, fairly fit, unvaccinated (anti vaxxer) died of covid - literally suffocated to death refused any treatment and died a very undignified, painful death at home.

There's not the same pressure being put on people at all to get the flu jab to protect other people. Or indeed themselves. I had countless letters, phonscalls, voicemail, testessages badgeringe to get the covid jab, but not at all with the flu jab.
I did however have to give reasons why I don't wanty children having the flu spray this year. Usually it's a standard letter from school, tick yes or no, tear off and return. This year it was log in to NHS and declare reasons why. "not necessary" was my reasons, because I don't believe my children need it. Yes they did have their baby jabs.

Sorry so many typos, child on me. Meant to say so many letters, phone calls, text messages and voicemails.

I'm just a healthy, 30 something who looks at the information available about covid and has decided that actually I will probably do OK by myself if I get it and so don't need to take a vaccine

As was a young man in our neighbourhood, who died of covid a few months ago leaving his two young children without a father. 37 years old, was fit as a fiddle.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes my colleague could have written your post about being a fit and healthy thirty something whose immune system could fight Covid. He’s dead now.

The death rate is not the only factor - its hospitalization (prolonged & intensive) expensive medication & intervention, cost & number of professionals involved in care (& the direct risk they face because of exposure & mental & physical exhaustion & the ripple of effects into general medical, surgical & other forms of treatment)
Also the side effects; aka weakness, disability (including long term issues of requiring physio, strokes, heart & lung damage some of which are catastrophic, loss of limbs, & kidney damage - some people requiring kidney dialysis)
The number of people who have get these issues are a heck of lot higher than deaths.
Many people get lower level issues which still have a prolonged affect on their ability to function at school or work or home life
I am sick of people sneering & saying death rates are low - tell that to the well over 150.000 people (who died within 28 days -because of course, we won't count those who are left on respirators for far longer) & ignoring the other casualties who survive - just.
& more would have died if it wasn't for the care they received -lets not forget that

@Bluepinkyellowcakes
I don't know where to start with the rubbish you've posted.

When you get it, I hope you get it mildly, but best of luck with the 'I won't seek medical attention' when you can't f*ing breathe as did happen with a friend of mine. They eventually made a reasonable (not full, yet) recovery but most definitely wouldn't have done if it wasn't for the medical attention he received.

I suggest you stop believing everything you read. Make your own decisions and let others do the same. The world would be a much better place.

One of the things I like about mn is how most of the posters are so supportive to women who are in coercive relationships with men. Yet there seem to be few who are as against people being coerced into taking a vaccine for what has proved for most people to be a mild to moderate but nearly always survivable illness.
Taking away rights and freedoms until people cave and get jabbed isn't free choice, it's wrong.

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

If people have the jab and have a bad reaction that needs treatment are they selfishly taking up NHS beds?

no because they're vanishingly rare and certainly take up a whole lot less beds than covid patients.

It is amazing how many people don’t really change their minds, even when faced with reality.

It even has a name - cognitive dissonance.

If you really believe something quite big, like Covid not existing, then your brain resists changing because to admit that, would be to admit that your brain had got something very seriously wrong.

My friend’s whole family are vehement anti-vaxxers. They all got Covid and their Dad ended up in ICU for 4 weeks. My friend got Covid too, unvaxxed, and was pretty ill.

I was just waiting for some kind of recognition that Covid was real, or that perhaps if they’d been vaccinated her Dad wouldn’t have ended up in ICU.

But no, after the initial shock, and worry that their Dad would survive. They are now complaining about having to wear masks again and completely avoid any discussion about vaccination. The local hospital is full in the ICU and having to turn some transplants and cancer patients away from surgery, because of it. Still… they do not see any connection between their actions as a family and other people or themselves.

I don’t think I can be friends anymore I’m just done with Covid deniers.

Honestly, I think if you don’t understand the differences between the flu and Covid vaccinations, or understand what the difference between an mRNA and conventional vaccination is (as posters on this thread don’t seem to); you should quit pontificating about vaccinations on the internet and go and do some proper learning until you understand why.