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Anti vaxxers question *title edited by MNHQ at OP's request*

477 replies

whywouldntyou · 28/11/2021 14:18

Watching the local news last week our local hospitals ITU is 6/8 full with covid patients. All unvaccinated. Youngest is 20 with no underlying heath conditions. I am continually hearing about covid patients in or just out of ITU saying 'I wish I'd got the jab'.

How do you (as an anti vaxxer) reconcile your attitude but still expecting to be treated in ITU? If they said ' right, no jab, no ITU bed' would you still refuse the vaccine?

What would it (genuinely) take for you to have the jab having seen all the other anti vaxxers encouraging people to have it after realising how ill they were?

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 30/11/2021 20:01

That website is horrible! Jesus some of those people haven't been dead 48 hours.

WTF has this pandemic done to people's humanity?!

XenoBitch · 30/11/2021 20:03

@BertieBotts

That website is horrible! Jesus some of those people haven't been dead 48 hours.

WTF has this pandemic done to people's humanity?!

I know. WTF is wrong with people? There is a subReddit that is similar too... and members on it have been known to troll the social media accounts of the deceased. Is messed up.
Northsoutheastwest76 · 30/11/2021 20:57

Not looked but it sounds vile. Equally vile though is the anti vax stuff going around sharing photos and news stories of children and late teens dying suddenly. At least one of these children is 11 years old and as in UK won't have been vaccinated but It didn't stop them using her tragic desth for their own agenda.

IHateFlies · 30/11/2021 21:06

How repulsive.
No way am I looking at that site.
It’s very sad as everyone is living in fear. Some fear covid, others the vaccine. People are trying to make the best decision for themselves and it’s very sad if they make the wrong one with grave consequences. How can people find this gleeful?

Northsoutheastwest76 · 30/11/2021 21:28

The basic issue I have us that no one actually knows whether you will be one if the unlucky ones and either have an adverse reaction to the vaccine or one of the unlucky ones and get a bad prognosis from COVID whether vaccinated or not. For this reason I feel it is totally wrong to attempt to persuade or dissuade anyone from taking the vaccine.

milkyaqua · 30/11/2021 22:44

@Northsoutheastwest76

The basic issue I have us that no one actually knows whether you will be one if the unlucky ones and either have an adverse reaction to the vaccine or one of the unlucky ones and get a bad prognosis from COVID whether vaccinated or not. For this reason I feel it is totally wrong to attempt to persuade or dissuade anyone from taking the vaccine.
If infected, someone who is unvaccinated is 32 times more likely to die of Covid than someone who has been vaccinated.

While vaccination carries a risk of side-effects, this risk is far smaller than the risk of being unvaccinated during a pandemic. Out of 46.3 million fully vaccinated people in the UK, 77 have died of blood clots thought to be related to a Covid vaccine.

www.theguardian.com/society/2021/nov/30/life-tragic-death-john-eyers-fitness-fanatic-who-refused-covid-vaccine

SLH2003 · 30/11/2021 22:48

@Northsoutheastwest76

The basic issue I have us that no one actually knows whether you will be one if the unlucky ones and either have an adverse reaction to the vaccine or one of the unlucky ones and get a bad prognosis from COVID whether vaccinated or not. For this reason I feel it is totally wrong to attempt to persuade or dissuade anyone from taking the vaccine.
This is the exact kind of bullshit that people latch on to.
Northsoutheastwest76 · 01/12/2021 00:39

Why is it Bellshill? The post was pobably more in relation to the way I feel about someone I know who has been. Why vocally anti vax with both me and random strangers online. I am appalled by her behaviour tbh.
I have looked at the data and I have been vaccinated including booster as I know that the risk is lower for the vaccine.
DD1 has too but I did not say anything to sway her either way.

Northsoutheastwest76 · 01/12/2021 00:40

Great why does autocorrect kick in after you press send.
Bullshit
Very vocally

CrunchyCarrot · 01/12/2021 00:50

It’s very sad as everyone is living in fear. Some fear covid, others the vaccine. People are trying to make the best decision for themselves and it’s very sad if they make the wrong one with grave consequences. How can people find this gleeful?

Yes, I decided recently I'm no longer afraid of Covid, nor of the vaccine, but I am afraid of people and what's happening in our world during this time. It's terrifying.

AliceA2021 · 01/12/2021 10:19

www.sorryantivaxxer.com/

I'd never heard of this until this thread today and looked at the site. So sad. Unnecessary deaths and the spreading of false information to prevent others from getting vaccinated is worse. I get that some people don't want to be vaccinated, their choice but to spread the misinformation that makes others scared and stops them from protecting their own life is criminal.

A huge number of deaths and so sad for their families and friends.

outofittt · 01/12/2021 12:54

@XenoBitch which is worse making a website reporting deaths or providing false information which causes the deaths in the first place? Who cares less, the website makers or the antivaxxers parading their nonsensical agenda causing infections? I haven’t looked at the website and don’t want to but I assume it’s grim as they are trying to deter antivaxxers

BertieBotts · 01/12/2021 13:09

It's not grim in that sense, it's grim because of the gloating tone.

North yes I agree about the teen deaths too - really insensitive and awful thing to post about on social media. I know it's done out of fear/a desire to "prove" to others that what they are afraid of is real but it doesn't make it OK.

It's true we don't know whether we'll have a reaction to the jab vs a reaction to the virus but considering the chances of a reaction to the jab are many many times lower, and there are also other benefits of the jab such as reduced effects of the virus and reduced chances to pass it on (and dare I say it, social/convenience benefits, like it or not they exist) for most people the trade off is very clear, hence the official medical advice. Most sources stating the opposite seem to be flawed.

I don't believe vaccines should be mandatory and I have a problem with narratives framing people who don't want the vaccine as somehow in the wrong, but it is a good choice for the majority of people and I don't think antivax narratives are helpful.

Talking about what is worse as if one justifies the other? They are both awful things to do. Don't do either of them.

outofittt · 01/12/2021 13:12

Gloating and mocking is absolutely not okay and it’s the same with flatearthers it never helps the cause

Sallydimebar · 01/12/2021 13:32

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Seriously the mind boggles . Where do you think we would be now without the vaccines. I know a few who don’t want it for various reasons my brother included .
I’m not nasty to him about it but I do worry he has a two year old . As a parent I’d do everything in my power to make sure I’m around for them .
Pp compared flying .. I hate flying prefer driving , I know flying is safer but I like to be in control . I’m sensible enough to know thou when on a plane I have to put my trust in the pilot. His / her field of expertise. I would need many years of training and knowledge before I took the controls . I don’t really think 12 months reading / watching utube would be sufficient.

Which is why millions of ££££s, time and research from doctors, scientists individuals from around the world has been involved in this vaccine and I’m thankful for them.

I really wouldn’t take the chance on age and being healthy enough to protect me .

IHateFlies · 01/12/2021 15:33

[quote Sallydimebar]@Bluepinkyellowcakes

Seriously the mind boggles . Where do you think we would be now without the vaccines. I know a few who don’t want it for various reasons my brother included .
I’m not nasty to him about it but I do worry he has a two year old . As a parent I’d do everything in my power to make sure I’m around for them .
Pp compared flying .. I hate flying prefer driving , I know flying is safer but I like to be in control . I’m sensible enough to know thou when on a plane I have to put my trust in the pilot. His / her field of expertise. I would need many years of training and knowledge before I took the controls . I don’t really think 12 months reading / watching utube would be sufficient.

Which is why millions of ££££s, time and research from doctors, scientists individuals from around the world has been involved in this vaccine and I’m thankful for them.

I really wouldn’t take the chance on age and being healthy enough to protect me .[/quote]
Maybe you would take a chance if there were article after article along the lines of ‘I’m young/healthy/no underlying issues and I got covid and it was mild’ and you read them day after day.

My point is you align yourself with what you believe then read tonnes to validate it so it becomes your truth.
Not many people are looking at all sides.
It’s such a complex situation and involves virology, pharmacology, economics, psychologists, politicians, media outlets and probably many others to drive the solution.
There are bound to be questions around all of this.

murcimari · 01/12/2021 17:22

worth watching yesterday's UnHerd interview with Paul Kingsnorth, which discusses whether vaccine status should be used to demonstrate your acceptable position in society.

Dadhadaproton · 01/12/2021 17:27

@Bluepinkyellowcakes

It is no longer considered a high consequence infectious disease due to amongst other things the low overall mortality rate. According to bmj and gov. UK websites. Yes, still serious for some, but its not as deadly as some people seem to think.
It as downgraded march 19 2020
MaxNormal · 01/12/2021 17:38

Does anyone know what to make of this? This is the actual pfizer data released by court order I think?
Sorry it's a twitter source and don't shoot the messenger please.

twitter.com/iGNORANTCHiMP/status/1465992238689923081?t=hAM-xvytozKFOc1rHozN3g&s=19

BertieBotts · 01/12/2021 17:53

No, I don't know how to interpret it because I'm not a medical scientist. I'll let them do that.

I don't see why serious concerning effects of the vaccine would be covered up? The risks they have found have been really well reported. If the vaccine was risky it would be pulled immediately. I know people think "they" don't want to do that but I can't think of any plausible reason why any gov/health agency wouldn't. I trust them that much.

Also... if the vaccine really had a 1/37 death rate as that twitter feed seems to be claiming, there would be a LOT of dead people. There aren't. You'd notice. You probably know more than 37 people yourself who have had that vaccine, I reckon I do.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/12/2021 18:29

@MaxNormal,

What is really important is the number of doses given in that interval (which I could not see on the Twitter ).

The u.s are vaccinating about 1mio per day, so 90 odd million over a 90 day period.

1200/90000000 is roughly a 1/100,000 fatality rate from the vaccine, as opposed to a 1/100 (roughly) from Covid. Even in the v healthy and v young, you are still about 10x more likely to die of Covid than the vaccine.

This data is nothing new and a complete non event.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 01/12/2021 18:30

@BertieBotts,

The 1/37 is the fatality rate IF you get a v serious reaction in the first place which, as I posted above, extremely rare.

ollyollyoxenfree · 01/12/2021 18:44

[quote MaxNormal]Does anyone know what to make of this? This is the actual pfizer data released by court order I think?
Sorry it's a twitter source and don't shoot the messenger please.

twitter.com/iGNORANTCHiMP/status/1465992238689923081?t=hAM-xvytozKFOc1rHozN3g&s=19[/quote]
"The FDA requested the courts to keep this information confidential for no oess than 55 YEARS!!"

Good to see this claim still going strong

@MaxNormal
First off, this is an interpretation by someone who sounds like a less than legit source - it's not a retweet from someone, it's literally his (questionable) analysis:

Gal Shalev Headphone
@iGNORANTCHiMP
Content Creator & Podcaster - we're living witnesses to the biggest fraud in human history.

It's just more nonsense, there isn't really more I can say unless I look up the documentation myself and go through it myself.

chesirecat99 · 01/12/2021 20:46

[quote MaxNormal]Does anyone know what to make of this? This is the actual pfizer data released by court order I think?
Sorry it's a twitter source and don't shoot the messenger please.

twitter.com/iGNORANTCHiMP/status/1465992238689923081?t=hAM-xvytozKFOc1rHozN3g&s=19[/quote]
What I make of that thread is that the document has been analysed by an aptly named ignorant chimp who doesn't understand it.

He clearly has some reading comprehension issues. He claims that 270 women had miscarriages caused by the vaccine. What it actually says is:
Pregnancy outcomes for the 270 pregnancies were reported as spontaneous abortion (23), outcome pending (5), premature birth with neonatal death, spontaneous abortion with intrauterine death (2 each), spontaneous abortion with neonatal death, and normal outcome (1 each). No outcome was provided for 238 pregnancies (note that 2 different outcomes were reported for each twin, and both were counted).

In other words, out of the 270 pregnant women who reported adverse reactions (mostly things like headache or fever), 23 (out of all the pregnant women who have been vaccinated worldwide) reported a spontaneous abortion post vaccination. There is nothing in the report to suggest that there is any evidence that the vaccine caused the spontaneous abortion. They don't give any further details about the 23 cases so I can't comment further than that. However, they conclude there were no safety signals that emerged from the review of these cases of use in pregnancy and while breast feeding.

The document summarises adverse events after vaccination that have been reported, some over a month after vaccination. It does not mean that there is a link between the adverse events and the vaccine. The whole point of reporting adverse events is to see if there is a pattern that suggests the vaccine might be responsible so needs further investigation. Furthermore you need to bear in mind that anyone can report an adverse reaction, so many of the reports are by members of the public, not HCPs. Furthermore, just because an adverse event is reported, it doesn't mean that other medical details have been provided that could rule out/rule in a link to the vaccine.

It doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know or anything that has been hidden from the public - it says lots of people had minor side effects like swollen lymph nodes or a temperature, there have been cases of myocarditis and anaphylaxis that are probably linked to the vaccine. The only new thing that I can see is that they are looking into whether there is an increased risk of Bell's palsy in people who have been vaccinated (449 cases, 314 of which were medically confirmed). I haven't been through it with a fine tooth comb though.

Lilifer · 01/12/2021 20:51

[quote murcimari]worth watching yesterday's UnHerd interview with Paul Kingsnorth, which discusses whether vaccine status should be used to demonstrate your acceptable position in society.

[/quote] Yes I listened to this, very good interview 👏🏻