Vaccinated v Unvaccinated in hospital

[beckypv]

I was just wondering what the numbers were of vaccinated v unvaccinated covid patients in hospital were. It made me wonder, if we had 100% vaccination, and covid is allowed to run free, would the nhs be able to cope? I know vaccination doesn’t always stop hospital admission but does it stop it enough that if infection figures were at 200k a day, would hospital admissions still be at a manageable level? The flip side of this, is I was wondering if everyone was vaccinated would that stop the government having to ponder introducing new measures of cases continue to rise?? ie. Would 99% 12+ (allowing for those who medically can’t) jabbed enable us to be free again?

@Sugarandtime

WhatsWrongWithMyUsername According to the government’s own latest technical briefing report by far the most deaths with COVID are in those that have had the injections.

Hospital stays are mostly in those who have not had any injections but not in as much a majority as I had expected.

If you look at the reports that show admissions and deaths (vaccinated vs unvaccinated) per 100,000 population that’s much clearer.

It it absolutely not the fault of those who have not had any injections

Maybe, maybe not, but in the drive to get everyone and their dog jabbed that's the way it could easily be presented

Ditto if vaccine pasports are finally brought in and the non-jabbed are refused access to this and that
Which could get interesting ...

Remember that PHE have released data to show that about 1/4 of people in hospital with covid were admitted for another reason eg a broken leg.
So they may well be fully vaccinated but will count in the covid hospital numbers. But they are not in for treatment for covid

The majority of people with serious illness (and thus are in hospital for an extended period) are unvaccinated. Hospital admissions as a statistic are of little use unless you know how many days someone is in hospital for vax vs unvax.

If everyone who is eligible was vaccinated or you had to prove you were vaccinated to enter premises other than essential (the ones that could open during the pandemic) it would help get numbers down

@Sugarandtime

WhatsWrongWithMyUsername According to the government’s own latest technical briefing report by far the most deaths with COVID are in those that have had the injections.

Hospital stays are mostly in those who have not had any injections but not in as much a majority as I had expected.

If we had 100% vaccinated then 100% of those hospitalized with covid would be vaccinated. It gives a better picture if you look at the cases per 100k

From the link posted above

Approx 80 per 100k hospital admissions were vaccinated (very few under 50s)
Approx 350 per 100k hospital admissions were unvaccinated

Approx 50 per 100k covid deaths were vaccinated
Approx 205 per 100k were unvaccinated

It's highly unlikely for example that these people would even be in hospital if vaccinated let alone in ICU
twitter.com/yolivia_/status/1450559827042787339

If you decide to not get vaccinated and then end up in ICU, who else’s fault is it?

No ones! It is a respiratory virus spread through droplets in the air. If you want to point a finger, then blame the person with Covid who is spreading it about.

Put it this way, if all of the unvaccinated people who need hospital treatment for covid had had the vaccine, there would be fewer hospitalisations. It’s perfectly obvious people’s choice not to get vaccinated is making things worse.

It’s people’s choice whether to get the vaccine or not, but don’t pretend it isn’t part of the problem. A problem which may lead to the rest of us having to have restrictions placed upon our life to accommodate others’ choice to refuse the vaccine.

I personally prefer to see exact figures rather than per a certain number.

Deaths within 28 days of a positive specimen date

All cases : 2542
Unlinked: 41
22 days post dose 2: 149

14 days post dose 2: 1613
Unvaccinated: 722

So 1779 died that had received at least 1 dose
723 were completely unvaccinated

In black and white the government has published these figures. Why would they publish one report suggesting majority of those had had died were unvaccinated and another the opposite?

The report suggesting more unvaccinated died, does that regard those who have only had 1 dose to be considered unvaccinated?

@Sugarandtime

I personally prefer to see exact figures rather than per a certain number.

Deaths within 28 days of a positive specimen date

All cases : 2542
Unlinked: 41
22 days post dose 2: 149

14 days post dose 2: 1613
Unvaccinated: 722

So 1779 died that had received at least 1 dose
723 were completely unvaccinated

In black and white the government has published these figures. Why would they publish one report suggesting majority of those had had died were unvaccinated and another the opposite?

The report suggesting more unvaccinated died, does that regard those who have only had 1 dose to be considered unvaccinated?

I agree.

The statistical figures of per 100k have their place and are useful to indicate you are more likely to end up in hospital if you are unvaccinated. But the exact figures show there are more vaccinated people in hospital/dying than unvaccinated people which, bearing in mind all the rhetoric in the press about hospitals being full of 'selfish unvaccinated' people is interesting to see.

@XenoBitch

If you decide to not get vaccinated and then end up in ICU, who else’s fault is it?

No ones! It is a respiratory virus spread through droplets in the air. If you want to point a finger, then blame the person with Covid who is spreading it about.

Ok, just keep telling yourself that nonsense. It doesn't make it true though

“The data should be interpreted taking into consideration the context of very high vaccine coverage in the UK population. Even with a highly effective vaccine, it is expected that a large proportion of cases would occur in vaccinated individuals, simply because a larger proportion of the population are vaccinated than unvaccinated,” a spokesperson for PHE previously told Reuters via email (here).

Dr Muge Cevik, a clinical lecturer in infectious diseases and medical virology at the University of St Andrews, also told Reuters that when much of a population has been vaccinated, “most infections and deaths are expected to be among those vaccinated”.

For the nth time, that's the reason why. More vaccinated people exist.

www.reuters.com/article/delta-vaccination-idUSL1N2QZ0IZ (fact check article from which above quotes taken)

Here's another expose as to why the raw data figures aren't to be taken "seriously" and how it's possible to take real numbers, but present them out of context to prove your point

www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/oct/19/facebook-posts/claim-covid-19-uk-ignores-data-showing-death-more-/

And here's the BMJ explaining how it works
blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/25/significant-proportions-of-people-admitted-to-hospital-or-dying-from-covid-19-in-england-are-vaccinated-this-doesnt-mean-the-vaccines-dont-work/

Ok, just keep telling yourself that nonsense. It doesn't make it true though hmm

If I end up in ICU after getting run over by a drunk driver.... is it their fault for drinking and driving, or is it my fault for walking out into the road?

The US is preparing to vaccinate 5 to 11 year olds next month. Canada and the EU look set to follow suit soon after.

We need to hurry up and double jab the over 11s and also get going with the 5-11s. We're massively failing on the under 18s rollout. Massively failing. It's a complete disaster.

@Sugarandtime You may prefer to see actual numbers but either you don't understand or you are trying to suggest that either vaccination makes things worse or that it doesn't work.

Let me put it another way.
If you have 100 people who are vaccinated and 100 who are unvaccinated then 8 of the vaccinated group will end up in hospital and 35 of the unvaccinated. How can that not be clear evidence that vaccines work?

The best thing you can do to prevent hospital admission is to get vaccinated.

@XenoBitch

Ok, just keep telling yourself that nonsense. It doesn't make it true though hmm

If I end up in ICU after getting run over by a drunk driver.... is it their fault for drinking and driving, or is it my fault for walking out into the road?

You can’t vaccinate yourself against getting run over.

You can’t vaccinate yourself against getting run over

No, but I can just not go out instead.

Point it, you can't have someone unvaccinated admitted to hospital, and have fingers pointed at them telling them is is their own fault.
There are so many factors in play.

@beckypv

I was just wondering what the numbers were of vaccinated v unvaccinated covid patients in hospital were. It made me wonder, if we had 100% vaccination, and covid is allowed to run free, would the nhs be able to cope? I know vaccination doesn’t always stop hospital admission but does it stop it enough that if infection figures were at 200k a day, would hospital admissions still be at a manageable level? The flip side of this, is I was wondering if everyone was vaccinated would that stop the government having to ponder introducing new measures of cases continue to rise?? ie. Would 99% 12+ (allowing for those who medically can’t) jabbed enable us to be free again?

But Covid patients arent always Covid patients just people in hospital who happen to also have Covid. It's not an indication that people who are vaccinated are being hospitalised due to Covid, so the stats are useless.

@EducatingArti

3000 children have been admitted with Covid since July. There would also be a need for all children to be vaccinated.

3000 children have been admitted to hospital (for any reason) who Also had Covid you mean? Which is very different. Man alive.

@XenoBitch

You can’t vaccinate yourself against getting run over

No, but I can just not go out instead.

Point it, you can't have someone unvaccinated admitted to hospital, and have fingers pointed at them telling them is is their own fault.
There are so many factors in play.

There are lots of factors, but I don’t think getting run over by a drunk driver is a good analogy. A drunk driver is at fault if they hurt someone. Someone who passes covid on probably does so unknowingly and is usually not at fault.

The truth is lots of people are in hospital due to things which could be said to be their “fault” a from injuring themselves in high risk activities, to being ill through smoking or obesity.

The problem with unvaccinated people is that this is a pandemic. The country didn’t lock down because of drunk drivers or smoking or people who go fell running or whatever. But covid - that did cause a lockdown, because too many people were being hospitalised with it. It’s in a category of its own therefore in terms of how we look at people’s response to it. I agree though, nothing about it is simple and there are lots of factors in play.

All the people I know who are seriously ill have been double vaxxed.

[quote Upsky]@Sugarandtime You may prefer to see actual numbers but either you don't understand or you are trying to suggest that either vaccination makes things worse or that it doesn't work.

Let me put it another way.
If you have 100 people who are vaccinated and 100 who are unvaccinated then 8 of the vaccinated group will end up in hospital and 35 of the unvaccinated. How can that not be clear evidence that vaccines work?

The best thing you can do to prevent hospital admission is to get vaccinated.[/quote]
I do understand and I’m not suggesting anything.
I have just looked at the figures that the government has published.

Why would the government publish these exact figures if they are incorrect?

Also people see being vaxxed as a free pass to drink, smoke and be overweight.

@sugarandtime you know full well that those figures are correct however you are being disingenuous. We both know you are an anti vaxer, the reason more people in hospital are vaccinated is because there are so many more of them. You are deliberately trying to detract from the rates per 100k because they look good.

*There are lots of factors, but I don’t think getting run over by a drunk driver is a good analogy. A drunk driver is at fault if they hurt someone. Someone who passes covid on probably does so unknowingly and is usually not at fault.

The truth is lots of people are in hospital due to things which could be said to be their “fault” a from injuring themselves in high risk activities, to being ill through smoking or obesity.

The problem with unvaccinated people is that this is a pandemic. The country didn’t lock down because of drunk drivers or smoking or people who go fell running or whatever. But covid - that did cause a lockdown, because too many people were being hospitalised with it. It’s in a category of its own therefore in terms of how we look at people’s response to it. I agree though, nothing about it is simple and there are lots of factors in play*

The country is not going to get locked down due to unvaccinated people.
It will be locked down because of a virus, and because of the chronic lack of NHS funding.
But yeah, it is easy to point to the finger at the "filthy" unvaccinated " people, and blame them for all the Covid cases and deaths.

Sorry, total quote fail