What are your thoughts on China ?

[Wetfloortiles]

Very interested in this.

I don't believe their numbers for a start, and I do feel they should take responsibility for this global pandemic.

I’ve had a look at videos of the wet markets. Disgusting. The Chinese Govt. should be held accountable in some way. I’m not sure how, but this has happened so many times as a result of their barbaric practices.

Also, I believe my friend whose husband has a business which is based in China. I think it has circulated for some time and only when it couldn’t be contained or kept domestic any longer, did China announce a potential pandemic.

I guess the problem is the Chinese Government are untouchable as they are a dictatorship who will happily run over their own people with tanks if it means they stay in power. Look at the Hong Kong Democracy protests, did any Governments come to the aid of Hong Kongers, nope in fact a few MPs in this country said protestors should stop causing trouble. What instead will happen is that the CCP will merrily continue living the benefits of being at the top, to keep other Governments off their back they probably will ban wet markets. Then they will probably start to round up the doctors/nurses who spoke out and the ordinary people who shouted grievances at visiting officials when the international community have moved on. At the same time anyone who looks East Asian will get extra racist abuse despite having nothing to do with any of it because idiots will always need their scapegoats.

As far as Morrissey goes, he got slated as he said some real racist crap. Seriously, would we be ok if people abroad called all English people derogatory remarks due to fact some posh knobs ride horses and kill foxes. It's fine to criticise China but don't turn Morrissey into some hero now. He really isn't one.

It's China this has popped up in, but lets be realist, it could of happened anywhere
Except it seems to happen in China more frequently than 'anywhere' else. Why do you think that is?

And that's exactly why most Chinese individuals are as much victims as the rest of us

Yes of course and it would be the government that was in some way held to account for not banning wet markets after SARS, and for not letting the world know about this virus sooner (though as we know people would probably not have listened - Boris Johnson’s government had two months in which the they did less than nothing - this doesn’t however absolve the Chinese government).

Being held to account IMO would involve the total banning of wet markets and trade in wild animals, the sharing of all info they may have about the virus, and financial reparation if at all possible, since we are now heading for a global recession - which will affect China as well I know.

But for the people around the world - including Chinese citizens of course - who have unnecessarily died - and will unnecessarily die - and for their families, it is too late .

For those who thinks there is some problem unique to China that causes viruses to jump species

Twice in twenty years. Perhaps this also happens in bushmeat eating areas, but they are not as mobile as the Chinese population either ...

Given virus did start in China (we will never know the absolute truth), they told the world in December and told of it's seriousness, people are dying... the country is on full lockdown. Countries decided not to close their borders until... Feb?

Person to person transmission was not admitted until late January just before the lockdown of Wuhan on the 23rd. WHO was not recommending travel bans and criticised the US for doing so on January 31. It was not declared a public health emergency until January 30; a pandemic was declared much later.

Hindsight is 20/20 maybe we should not have taken the WHO seriously?

SARS was hardly a pandemic, so you cannot really say it’s twice in twenty years. If you want to include SARS, then you have to include also MERS, Hanta Virus and Ebola.

Oh, and swine flu as well. Only by ignoring similarly deadly viruses that have killed just as many people can you come to the (biased) conclusion that this happens more often in China than anywhere else.

Btw, a tiger in a US zoo has tested positive for COVID. So, my point on an earlier thread is proven. That eating or trading in wildlife is no more dangerous than having a zoo for transmission if viruses from animal to human.

SARS had a grand global total of 774 deaths over all the years of its existence. You cannot with a straight face claim that China has been the origin of a pandemic “twice in twenty years” and count SARS.

Person to person transmission was not DISCOVERED until 23 January by tracing the different cases and their contacts.
It was a new virus, they thought it was only animal to human transmission from the seafood market before then.

The Hong Kong protesters were not protesting democracy. They were protesting against China being able to extradite criminals from Hong Kong to be tried for crimes they committed in China. They felt that China would abuse the extradition process to extradite political dissidents not realising that HK has the authority to refuse to extradite people on a case by case basis.
Extradition is very standard between nations. Most countries have several hundred extradition agreements with other nations.

The tiger caught cv from the zoo keeper who was infected but didn't display symptoms

in the previous SARS outbreak the virus caused severe symptoms quickly such that anyone infected was much less likely to have time to spread it to others, that is one of the factors which meant that it did not become a pandemic.

Person to person transmission was not DISCOVERED until 23 January by tracing the different cases and their contacts.

Scientific standard confirmation is very different to generally accepted confirmation. When your medical staff and those working/living away from the centre of the infection are becoming unwell, that should be perfect sufficient for epidemiologists and govt officials alike to hold strong suspicion of human to human transmission and notify accordingly.

They know what they did.

And so does the rest of the world.

@PlanDe, a lot of your information is simply incorrect.

Have a watch of this:

SARS was hardly a pandemic, so you cannot really say it’s twice in twenty years

I can say it, because it’s true. And the origin is the same, they learned very little from SARS (luckily Taiwan and South Korea learned a lot, namely not to trust the Chinese government).

That eating or trading in wildlife is no more dangerous than having a zoo for transmission if viruses from animal to human

What is wrong with you? Consumption of bush meat and wild animals of unknown provenance is extremely dangerous. We are lucky that bushmeat eating peoples are generally not mobile. Chinese people are more wealthy and mobile, thus spreading it far and wide.

Person to person transmission was not DISCOVERED until 23 January by tracing the different cases and their contacts

The possibility was raised much earlier by Taiwanese. Here’s a great article covering this: www.ft.com/content/2a70a02a-644a-11ea-a6cd-df28cc3c6a68

Health officials in Taipei said they alerted the WHO at the end of December about the risk of human-to-human transmission of the new virus but said its concerns were not passed on to other countries

Another tidbit:

Taiwan said its doctors had heard from mainland colleagues that medical staff were getting ill — a sign of human-to-human transmission. Taipei officials said they reported this to both International Health Regulations (IHR), a WHO framework for exchange of epidemic prevention and response data between 196 countries, and Chinese health authorities on December 31

So the Taiwanese figured it out in December but no one listened.

Again, why are you defending the Chinese government? They have caused this pandemic, they have harmed their own people by not being transparent.

I’ve asked you before, but are you happy being a useful idiot for the Chinese government? You do know you can criticize the UK response without defending the CCP. Maybe you should try it.

Sorry Mango, it is not true that there have been two pandemics in the last twenty years from China (SARS and COVID) that is a bald faced lie. It is categorically not true.

The 23rd Jan is the date the WHO stated there was no sufficient evidence that the virus can be transmitted between humans. I am sure their statement was based on the various reports you mention coming in from the other affected nations as well as China. I am not inaccurate for using the WHO announcement date as the date that most other governments would have then started to listen and accept that human to human transmission is possible. The WHO is the world authority and so most nations wait for them to say the word.

Governments don’t cause pandemics because a pandemic is a natural disaster. Yes, they can worsen them or make them less severe by their actions, but it’s ridiculous to say this was “caused” by China having the type of government they have. Viruses are constantly moving between species. They always have and always will do so.

It’s funny too that you ignore other viruses that have killed far more people than SARS and are today killing people and act like all viruses have come from China. You have ignored West Nile Virus, Ebola, the Measles epidemics in Africa that kill 150,000 every year, Hendra, Lassa, Monkeypox, MERS, Zika, Nipah, Marburg virus, Crimean Congo Hemoraghic fever, and many others that are currently in causing outbreaks around the world. Just check the WHO emergencies page on current epidemics. There are dozens of epidemics going on much larger than SARS ever was and oh, look at that, they’re not all made in China!

Idiot? Thanks for that. I’m not an idiot. You do appear overly focussed on China though and it is sadly predictable that you are only aware of COVID. All the hundreds of thousands dying elsewhere don’t seem to even register. Why is that? Because it’s not happening in Europe?

*no evidence should be now evidence. Sorry the w dropped off.

I don’t see the point in playing the blame game

www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html

sadly predictable that you are only aware of COVID. All the hundreds of thousands dying elsewhere

@PlanDeRaccordement

Are you aware of the meaning of global pandemic? You seem to imagine this virus only affects the West. That is indicative of a narrow, insular perspective. Take a look at India. Take a look at Ecuador, where bodies line the streets. This virus will make its lethal progress through shanty towns and refugee camps. In December 2019 a doctor in Wuhan was forced to confess to illegal activities for speaking out about the virus. He subsequently died of it. It is imperative that the origins and response to this is exposed to rigorous, critical scrutiny. It will be.

Governments don’t cause pandemics because a pandemic is a natural disaster. Yes, they can worsen them or make them less severe by their actions, but it’s ridiculous to say this was “caused” by China having the type of government they have

It’s not ridiculous and it’s clear to me that you have not read any of the articles I’ve linked. The interplay between local and central government officials is one major element that has caused this. There is a lack of accurate information coming from the provinces, and you seem utterly unaware of this. It’s been a feature in China since the Great Leap Forward and was still evident in the botched handling of the African swine flu that decimated their pig numbers in 2019.

Twice in twenty years. The exact same cause. You can deflect by listing all these other diseases, but two NOVEL diseases came out of China in less than twenty years from the exact same
cause and this one looks to become endemic.

Novel diseases coming out of Africa are more regional as they are not as wealthy or mobile as their Chinese counterparts.

Idiot? Thanks for that. I’m not an idiot. You do appear overly focussed on China though and it is sadly predictable that you are only aware of COVID. All the hundreds of thousands dying elsewhere don’t seem to even register. Why is that? Because it’s not happening in Europe?

I called you a useful idiot because that’s what you are. The Chinese government does not deserve your lame defenses.

I am concerned because I have lived in China and have intimate knowledge of what goes on there. I know people affected by this; I don’t want the Chinese government to sweep these problems under the rug (again) and shrug, as you do, that pandemics can happen anywhere so why make a fuss?

These were absolutely preventable. The Chinese people deserve better and shame on you for downplaying it.

You don’t even attempt to explain why Taiwan figured out and informed the WHO about human to human transmission in December. Imagine if the WHO took Taiwan seriously then (but we know the WHO can’t even mention Taiwan because it would make Beijing angry ....)

I agree Dags, the blame game is not worth playing.
At any one time there are multiple epidemics going on that could break containment and cause a pandemic. Sometimes they do break containment and a pandemic happens.

It’s inevitable. I read through all the WHO situation reports and to me all the actions taken by China were proportionate and appropriate for what was known about the COVID virus at that time. You can post all you want from various media sources but to me they are all biased and have ulterior motives that slant their reporting. The WHO being an international organisation focussed on health have no political agenda to feed with hype or spin. It is all to easy to sit in an armchair with the benefit of hindsight to criticise and cast blame. The blame game is not helpful at all, not the least because it has led to racially motivated attacks on people of Chinese ethnicity.

Mango- I am not defending the Chinese government. Their government is irrelevant to me. It is more that I refuse to blame the Chinese government for what is a natural disaster. Blame is very different from criticising response to a natural disaster. Conversations about what could be done better next time as a response to an epidemic/pandemic are helpful. It’s statements like “this was absolutely preventable” which cast blame, are scientifically not true and feed racism.

Plan if the conditions which led to this pandemic were stopped, ie the particular market situation, then then this would not have occurred a second time?