What are your thoughts on China ?

[Wetfloortiles]

Very interested in this.

I don't believe their numbers for a start, and I do feel they should take responsibility for this global pandemic.

[tipon]

I dont know if this has been posted before but it was on one of my healthcare workers groups. Interesting insight into how China's hospitals were coping, which is not well.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QcE4JZg2GqM&fbclid=IwAR0e-Otnq6NgpMu0wFlPLr1qhDlxyuO2DV0as5klBwe3wcDLGNwhUdKMU

[TheClootieDumplin]

Everyone has every right to demand a rigorous, critical examination of how this virus emerged and why it became a global pandemic

Hear Hear.

We also have the right to want and hope for economic sanctions against
China. The sooner the better.

[Orangeblossom78]

This on BBC seems to sum it up well

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-52194356

[ShanghaiDiva]

It did.
Every province was affected.

[CrotchetyQuaver]

This whole business is frankly Fishy As Fuck

I don't believe a word China says on this and how come it didn't spread nationwide over there?

[BovaryX]

www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html

[BovaryX]

@PlanDeRaccordement

Your comments on this thread are indicative of wilful ignorance. On December 30th 2019 Li Wenliang warned his medical colleagues about the novel viru. He was visited by the police and forced to confess to illegal behaviour. He subsequently died. Corona was evident in early December 2019 It took seven weeks before the Chinese authorities acted. The initial response was silencing whistleblowers as local officials prepared for their 'annual congresses in January.' A political decision. That failure to act concerns the whole planet. Because this is now a global health emergency. Everyone has every right to demand a rigorous, critical examination of how this virus emerged and why it became a global pandemic. Those on this forum who want to silence questions and who continually parrot the official line of a totalitarian regime? Peculiar behaviour. Questionable motives. I suggest you read the NYT piece.

[MarshaBradyo]

If people say ‘unlucky’ and let’s move on without discussing and nothing changes, what’s to stop it happening a third time? Could be worse than we have it now.

At least remove the obvious and stated risk.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

The WHO being an international organisation focussed on health have no political agenda to feed with hype or spin

Oh dear, oh dear ... you might want to look at who heads up the organisation, read a bit about his background and consider if you still feel the same way

And it's not blame which some of us are interested in but accountability, which isn't the same thing at all - not that there's a hope in hell of seeing any from this particular regime

[ShanghaiDiva]

China put in measures in February to prohibit markets trading in wild animals for consumption. Let’s hope these new regulations are being adhered to.

[BovaryX]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/06/ban-wild-animal-markets-prevent-another-pandemic-conservationists/

[BovaryX]

The Telegraph reports growing pressure on the WHO. Its independence and credibility will continue to be questioned.

^the World Health Organisation has come under pressure to recommend that governments shut down wild animal markets to prevent future pandemics.More than 200 conservationist and wildlife groups have signed an open letter calling on WHO to do all it can to shut down markets such as the one in Wuhan, China, believed to be the starting point of the coronavirus outbreak.
The evidence suggests Covid-19 has animal origins, likely from bats, and may have come from "wet markets" where live and dead creatures are sold for eating, leading to a temporary ban on the markets by the Chinese government.Until January, such markets sold animals such as live civets, wolf pups and pangolins kept in small cages, often in filthy conditions where they incubate diseases that can then spill into human populations^

[joystir59]

Love it to drink tea out of

[MangoFeverDream]

You can post all you want from various media sources but to me they are all biased and have ulterior motives that slant their reporting

These reputable outlets are printing things I don’t like, so obviously they are slanted and biased. 🙄 I have linked a variety of sources, from SCMP to WaPo to the FT.

What are the chances all of them are biased? Sounds like the biased one is you.

I mean, if you can’t rely on any media outlets, what are you doing? Basing it on your feelings?

It is more that I refuse to blame the Chinese government for what is a natural disaster.

It was a manmade disaster. First in allowing the conditions for it to happen, which they 100% know about and ignored, and then by trying to hide, downplay and blame others for it.

Conversations about what could be done better next time as a response to an epidemic/pandemic are helpful

They had their chance in 2004 and didn’t bother to change anything. That’s on them.

scientifically not true and feed racism

This has nothing to do with racism. What’s racist about any of this? The Chinese government fucked up, multiple times, and the whole world is suffering

[MarshaBradyo]

Plan if the conditions which led to this pandemic were stopped, ie the particular market situation, then then this would not have occurred a second time?

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I agree Dags, the blame game is not worth playing.
At any one time there are multiple epidemics going on that could break containment and cause a pandemic. Sometimes they do break containment and a pandemic happens.

It’s inevitable. I read through all the WHO situation reports and to me all the actions taken by China were proportionate and appropriate for what was known about the COVID virus at that time. You can post all you want from various media sources but to me they are all biased and have ulterior motives that slant their reporting. The WHO being an international organisation focussed on health have no political agenda to feed with hype or spin. It is all to easy to sit in an armchair with the benefit of hindsight to criticise and cast blame. The blame game is not helpful at all, not the least because it has led to racially motivated attacks on people of Chinese ethnicity.

Mango- I am not defending the Chinese government. Their government is irrelevant to me. It is more that I refuse to blame the Chinese government for what is a natural disaster. Blame is very different from criticising response to a natural disaster. Conversations about what could be done better next time as a response to an epidemic/pandemic are helpful. It’s statements like “this was absolutely preventable” which cast blame, are scientifically not true and feed racism.

[MangoFeverDream]

Governments don’t cause pandemics because a pandemic is a natural disaster. Yes, they can worsen them or make them less severe by their actions, but it’s ridiculous to say this was “caused” by China having the type of government they have

It’s not ridiculous and it’s clear to me that you have not read any of the articles I’ve linked. The interplay between local and central government officials is one major element that has caused this. There is a lack of accurate information coming from the provinces, and you seem utterly unaware of this. It’s been a feature in China since the Great Leap Forward and was still evident in the botched handling of the African swine flu that decimated their pig numbers in 2019.

Twice in twenty years. The exact same cause. You can deflect by listing all these other diseases, but two NOVEL diseases came out of China in less than twenty years from the exact same
cause and this one looks to become endemic.

Novel diseases coming out of Africa are more regional as they are not as wealthy or mobile as their Chinese counterparts.

Idiot? Thanks for that. I’m not an idiot. You do appear overly focussed on China though and it is sadly predictable that you are only aware of COVID. All the hundreds of thousands dying elsewhere don’t seem to even register. Why is that? Because it’s not happening in Europe?

I called you a useful idiot because that’s what you are. The Chinese government does not deserve your lame defenses.

I am concerned because I have lived in China and have intimate knowledge of what goes on there. I know people affected by this; I don’t want the Chinese government to sweep these problems under the rug (again) and shrug, as you do, that pandemics can happen anywhere so why make a fuss?

These were absolutely preventable. The Chinese people deserve better and shame on you for downplaying it.

You don’t even attempt to explain why Taiwan figured out and informed the WHO about human to human transmission in December. Imagine if the WHO took Taiwan seriously then (but we know the WHO can’t even mention Taiwan because it would make Beijing angry ....)

[BovaryX]

sadly predictable that you are only aware of COVID. All the hundreds of thousands dying elsewhere

@PlanDeRaccordement

Are you aware of the meaning of global pandemic? You seem to imagine this virus only affects the West. That is indicative of a narrow, insular perspective. Take a look at India. Take a look at Ecuador, where bodies line the streets. This virus will make its lethal progress through shanty towns and refugee camps. In December 2019 a doctor in Wuhan was forced to confess to illegal activities for speaking out about the virus. He subsequently died of it. It is imperative that the origins and response to this is exposed to rigorous, critical scrutiny. It will be.

[BovaryX]

www.nytimes.com/2020/02/01/world/asia/china-coronavirus.html

[Darbs76]

I don’t see the point in playing the blame game

[PlanDeRaccordement]

*no evidence should be now evidence. Sorry the w dropped off.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

Sorry Mango, it is not true that there have been two pandemics in the last twenty years from China (SARS and COVID) that is a bald faced lie. It is categorically not true.

The 23rd Jan is the date the WHO stated there was no sufficient evidence that the virus can be transmitted between humans. I am sure their statement was based on the various reports you mention coming in from the other affected nations as well as China. I am not inaccurate for using the WHO announcement date as the date that most other governments would have then started to listen and accept that human to human transmission is possible. The WHO is the world authority and so most nations wait for them to say the word.

Governments don’t cause pandemics because a pandemic is a natural disaster. Yes, they can worsen them or make them less severe by their actions, but it’s ridiculous to say this was “caused” by China having the type of government they have. Viruses are constantly moving between species. They always have and always will do so.

It’s funny too that you ignore other viruses that have killed far more people than SARS and are today killing people and act like all viruses have come from China. You have ignored West Nile Virus, Ebola, the Measles epidemics in Africa that kill 150,000 every year, Hendra, Lassa, Monkeypox, MERS, Zika, Nipah, Marburg virus, Crimean Congo Hemoraghic fever, and many others that are currently in causing outbreaks around the world. Just check the WHO emergencies page on current epidemics. There are dozens of epidemics going on much larger than SARS ever was and oh, look at that, they’re not all made in China!

Idiot? Thanks for that. I’m not an idiot. You do appear overly focussed on China though and it is sadly predictable that you are only aware of COVID. All the hundreds of thousands dying elsewhere don’t seem to even register. Why is that? Because it’s not happening in Europe?

[MangoFeverDream]

SARS was hardly a pandemic, so you cannot really say it’s twice in twenty years

I can say it, because it’s true. And the origin is the same, they learned very little from SARS (luckily Taiwan and South Korea learned a lot, namely not to trust the Chinese government).

That eating or trading in wildlife is no more dangerous than having a zoo for transmission if viruses from animal to human

What is wrong with you? Consumption of bush meat and wild animals of unknown provenance is extremely dangerous. We are lucky that bushmeat eating peoples are generally not mobile. Chinese people are more wealthy and mobile, thus spreading it far and wide.

Person to person transmission was not DISCOVERED until 23 January by tracing the different cases and their contacts

The possibility was raised much earlier by Taiwanese. Here’s a great article covering this: www.ft.com/content/2a70a02a-644a-11ea-a6cd-df28cc3c6a68

Health officials in Taipei said they alerted the WHO at the end of December about the risk of human-to-human transmission of the new virus but said its concerns were not passed on to other countries

Another tidbit:

Taiwan said its doctors had heard from mainland colleagues that medical staff were getting ill — a sign of human-to-human transmission. Taipei officials said they reported this to both International Health Regulations (IHR), a WHO framework for exchange of epidemic prevention and response data between 196 countries, and Chinese health authorities on December 31

So the Taiwanese figured it out in December but no one listened.

Again, why are you defending the Chinese government? They have caused this pandemic, they have harmed their own people by not being transparent.

I’ve asked you before, but are you happy being a useful idiot for the Chinese government? You do know you can criticize the UK response without defending the CCP. Maybe you should try it.

[Hileni]

@PlanDe, a lot of your information is simply incorrect.

Have a watch of this: