What are your thoughts on China ?

[Wetfloortiles]

Very interested in this.

I don't believe their numbers for a start, and I do feel they should take responsibility for this global pandemic.

www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-whistleblowers-speak-out-vanish-2020-2

@bovaryx - I sent you a link - uni's were telling students they were closing in the weeks before the U.K. announced a lock down

What do I need to prove that some unis told students they should leave apart from an email which if you gave me a few hours I could possibly pull up

That's why I came on this thread

You are attempting to shut down discussion of the origins of this virus by saying it has caused racist attacks? I think that is a clear attempt to manipulate the narrative.

@Porseb yes but we KNOW this. There is no denying there is more dead. China have not said that.

You didn’t answer my question - do you think China’s figures are truthful?

@Porseb
If you are unable to grasp the difference between 'sent home' and choosing to go home? So be it. I have already provided a link to universities offering free accommodation to international students. I suggest you read it.

Figures, like people, like the media are all subject to manipulation.

We need to ask ourselves when we're reading articles which inform our biases whether we can read and form our own subjective opinions.

I'm coming off this thread now - it's my day off before heading back to work tomorrow

And I will need the mental down time

@Porseb avoidance again.

I see China delivering aid in the form of masks and PPE to countries like Italy and Spain - does this not demonstrate it feels some responsibility towards these countries?

Not necessarily, no; it could equally a suggest an attempt to do something - anything - to deflect some of the criticism they know is coming the regime's way

@oldbeforem - I work in the NHS - I'm working tomorrow - I would love to stay on and debate with you but I need the down time after a very difficult few weeks

I also need to be mentally prepared to start work again tomorrow.

I'm not shutting down arguments - I'm calling out unconscious bias

And I'm speaking from experience with regards to increase racial abuse of people of Chinese origin

Nothing racist about stating the obvious IMO. The buck stops with them, it is their fault and they need to be held accountable when all this is over.

I think the problem is though because the figures coming out of China arent necessarily true it is difficult to know exactly how bad it is going to be in Europe.

Mangofeverdream please could you link to the article? I've looked on the website but I can't find it. Thank you.

@Porseb I havr asked a simple question three times and you come on here to reply but don’t answer it, it does feel like avoidance.

I deliver unconscious bias training to a large firm - this is not the same thing.

The Chinese government minimised and lied about this outbreak which has led to devastation across the world. Their own people suffered so the government
let them down too. I don’t ybink anyone here is blaming ‘all of China’. And no one is here is condoning racist behaviour towards people of Chinese origin.

the Chinese government minimised and lied about this outbreak which has led to devastation across the world. Their own people suffered so the government let them down too. I don’t ybink anyone here is blaming ‘all of China’. And no one is here is condoning racist behaviour towards people of Chinese origin

Well said.

The intention for starting this discussion might not be racist, but emotively riling people up and encouraging everyone to start pointing fingers at a specific country definitely has nasty undertones.

China was slow off the mark, but this is a new virus that hadn't been seen before - WHO was notified on 31st Dec 2019.

Papers were published in international journals by January 2020 to warn and guide other countries on how to deal with this. You might not trust the Chinese government, but Taiwan, South Korea and Singapore were quick to implement preventative measures - these have been shown to work.

The UK government had a massive advantage with respect to time and being able to see what had been effective / not worked elsewhere - and yet, they pressed on with the "herd immunity" approach - going against what every other country or indeed what the WHO was recommending at the time. It's easy for people like Michael Gove and Trump to blame China - but that's massively covering up for their own failings and poor choices.

Look at Germany's figures - they have handled things far better (with a shorter lead time) and the result is a much lower fatality rate. In fact, when repatriating their citizens from China earlier in the year, they dropped huge amounts of medical supplies - a far more global and cooperative approach.

As much as China needs to take responsibility for the start of this pandemic, the UK government absolutely needs to take responsibility over their poor handling and the resultant deaths that occur here.

Link to WaPo, free article as it’s about coronavirus: www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-families-should-be-sweeping-graves-now-but-thousands-still-havent-buried-their-dead/2020/04/03/5a6daa50-7234-11ea-ad9b-254ec99993bc_story.html

And no one is here is condoning racist behaviour towards people of Chinese origin

I think that needs to be explicitly stated over and over because unfortunately, “blame China” very often ends up translating into violence towards actual people.

"unfortunately, “blame China” very often ends up translating into violence towards actual people"

Exactly this is the problem. Several of you in this thread are doing the shocked face 'me racist? how very dare you?' when you continue to refer to China rather than specifically the government. Just look at the thread title. And BovaryX every government, including our own, is trying to 'manage the narrative'. Are you really surprised that the Chinese government is? Yes, it's an authoritarian, horrible government and some of the actions taken have made things much, much worse while others made things perhaps better than they could have been.

There's plenty of blame to go around. Stop talking about 'they' and 'China' as if the current government, the nation, the people, and the ethnic group are all some evil mustache-twirling monolith.

And hold 'them' accountable? What do you expect, a cheque or something?

what do you guys thinks about the nuclear bomb tests that Britain carried out in the pacific - i wonder why in the Pacific and not somewhere closer and more convenient for our scientists?

www.justsecurity.org/56127/devastating-legacy-british-american-nuclear-testing-kiritimati-christmas-malden-islands/

of course, many people in this country probably would support the calls for help and compensation if they were aware of them.

As a practical matter, i did read that in Taiwan more and more, the younger people prefer the convenience of a supermarket, and wet markets are used more by the older generations, and so may be on their way out anyway.

Did China ever ask Britain for compensation for the opium trade in the 18th and 19th centuries or did they just call on the British government to change their laws, while acting against the smugglers within China?

I hope at the end of it all, things change for the better; the words of foreign governments, that wet markets are a danger to the whole planet, must carry significant weight after this crisis, without having to bludgeon or humiliate the Chinese government.

And hold 'them' accountable? What do you expect, a cheque or something?

They could stop lying about the death numbers for one.

I have been very careful to separate the Chinese government from the people, by the way, as the people are suffering from their own government’s impulse to cover up what happened in Wuhan. It also hampered preparedness in other countries as they were essentially relying on figures that were totally false.

what do you guys thinks about the nuclear bomb tests that Britain carried out in the pacific

It doesn’t matter what I think; it has nothing to do with this thread and pretty offensive you are bringing it up here to say ...?

Exactly this is the problem. Several of you in this thread are doing the shocked face 'me racist? how very dare you?' when you continue to refer to China rather than specifically the government

@veryveryquietly

Er, I suggest you Google metonymy. China means the regime. Your attempt to claim that using the common rhetorical device of country to refer to government is racist? That is quite pathetic. The manipulative attempt to silence any discussion of the origins of this virus by making false claims of racism? It is startling to look like a deliberate tactic.

Stop talking about

@veryveryquietly

The determination to stop people talking to dictate and control the narrative? It's on blatant display...

I agree, Mango, you have been fairly careful in separating the (current) government from monolithic faceless scary enemy.

But some choice quotes from this thread:

"The buck stops with them, it is their fault and they need to be held accountable when all this is over."

"Almost as if they wanted to send this new virus out before the world had chance to introduce countermeasures."

FFS.

@MangoFeverDream

It doesn’t matter what I think; it has nothing to do with this thread and pretty offensive you are bringing it up here to say ...?

i do think it's relevant in that the appropriate level of outrage against another country should depend on one's own behaviour? If you think Britain has never done anything wrong, then you'll be more outraged than if you're more aware of both the good and the bad that governments do? That's why I think the point is relevant. What point did you think I was trying to make?

It is quite incredible that the UK has not closed its borders and imposed draconian restrictions on who can enter the country and from where. As many other countries have done for their own protection

Another example of using country to refer to government written by me in this thread. @veryveryquietly