What are your thoughts on China ?

[Wetfloortiles]

Very interested in this.

I don't believe their numbers for a start, and I do feel they should take responsibility for this global pandemic.

Let me rephrase that, Bovary. You are correct that I could have stated that better. I'll admit parts of this thread are making me angry. I should have said "we should stop talking about it this way and talk instead that way."

I believe it would be more productive if we were all much more careful in choosing our language, lobbing accusations around, providing evidence to support our claims, and avoiding phrasing that could easily and understandably be taken as racist.

Precision might produce some useful discussion. Going on about 'them' with no care as to who the 'them' is, well, that leads to pitchforks. And don't we have enough problems as it is?

If you think Britain has never done anything wrong

Nobody thinks that. But citing the Opium Wars is a fine example of whataboutery. Another recurrent theme....

I believe it would be more productive if we were all much more careful in choosing our language

You have given a perfectly ludicrous example of racism and it makes me question your motivation. It is a common rhetorical device to use country to refer to the government of that country. I suggest you consider your own words carefully @veryveryquietly

I know perfectly well what metonymy means, Bovary. But I also find it striking that very many posters here are able to differentiate between BoJo, the UK government, and the UK as a whole, or Trump and the US, but still fall back on 'China'.

I know perfectly well what metonymy means

Really? Bizarre then that you would use it as an example of 'racism.'

I need to know that pressure will be placed on China so this can’t happen again

I want meat eaters to take responsibility for this (and swine flu, and bird flu, and antibiotic resistance, and MERS, and SARS...) but it hasn’t happened yet.

It is quite incredible that the UK has not closed its borders and imposed draconian restrictions on who can enter the country and from where. As many other countries have done for their own protection

Is my use of UK in this example 'racist?' Does it imply criticism of the entire population? @veryveryquietly

I agree that the Chinese government should take responsibility. The disgusting practices in these markets that they allow or turn a blind eye to, the cover up. Thanks to them hundreds of thousands of people will die and the global economy is completely fucked. It’s not racist to say that, how ridiculous, as they have fucked over their own people as well.

Question my motivation all you want Bovary. I'm trying to be open about my reasoning and my response. I am absolutely no fan of, nor an apologist for, the current or any past Chinese regime. The exact opposite in fact. I do, however, think it would be good for all of us to think more carefully before we speak, about what we mean, exactly.

If it makes you happy to declare victory in an internet discussion, enjoy.

But citing the Opium Wars is a fine example of whataboutery. Another recurrent theme....

aren't there people calling for financial compensation from China? On the practical issue of getting compensation, is it not relevant that you'd be open to counter-claims?

That it is not relevant to wet markets and covid-19, and the predictability that something would happen, that I agree with; I just had lots of thoughts and ideas in my head, it was a bit of a rambling post in general.

@veryveryquietly

I do, however, think it would be good for all of us to think more carefully before we speak

I certainly think you should think carefully about your words before you make baseless accusations of racism

I just had lots of thoughts and ideas in my head, it was a bit of a rambling post in general
?

Success in closing down practises also relies on the will of people too, not just regulation. The Chinese government should act but if the will to trade us still there it may move to places more hidden. It’s a deep cultural practise and sometimes they are hard to remove.

@BovaryX

who do you mean by just leaving a question mark? I don't think the sentence was unclear. If you have a problem with what I said, just say it out straight.

China was just unlucky. Pandemics regularly appear and affect human populations. Any animal-human contact can be the vector of transmission. It doesn’t even have to be high contact or an animal we eat as was shown by the AIDS pandemic coming to us via SIV (monkeys). AIDS has killed 32 million people to date and still kills 770,000 each year. It’s death rate is the lowest it’s ever been at 43% due to new ART medications. That is still much more deadly than COVID is proving to be. Another pandemic was inevitable it was just a lottery to see where one would begin.

In addition, according to the WHO, the virus was traced to a seafood market in Wuhan, not a wet market. They think it was black market trade in wild animals that went on at this seafood market that might have been when the transmission happened. China has already banned wet markets and so everyone saying that China needs to do this can rest assured, it’s already been done. The eating of wild animals still occurs in the West as well as the East. So I think it also hypocritical to blame this on eating wild animals.

I think we need to keep in mind too that this new virus mimics many other known viruses- in this case COVID mimics any one of hundreds of known viral pneumonias. So because it was so similar, it will of course take longer for doctors to catch on and recognise it as something different and new. So I do not blame China for the delay in realising that this was not just an bad winters uptick in flu caused pneumonia but something new and deadly. After all, it took the U.K. five years to realise that mad cow disease BSE was infectious and to warn the world. There were good reasons for that delay too, and so I think we can empathise with China taking two months to realise the danger COVID presented.

I think too many posters are angry at the situation and lashing out at China because they need a scapegoat. I agree with the poster that said much of this read like war rhetoric. I also agree that many inflammatory things have been said that can cause racist abuse of Chinese ethnic people in our communities. There is a lot of unconscious bias too. A clear example of this is how it is OK for the U.K. to count COVID cases and deaths using their own methods but if China uses a different method, then it is lying. That’s bias.

China has already banned wet markets and so everyone saying that China needs to do this can rest assured, it’s already been done. They may have banned it, but aren’t enforcing the ban as stridently as they could.

I could be wrong but I think it may be a ban in the similar way fox hunting has been banned here. A blind eye is turned.

IMO the conditions of these markets are utterly barbaric.

I’m not convinced the ban is being adhered to either. Recent images, which may have been false or true, makes it uncertain.

china sending us 300 ventilators?? not sure what to think about that tbh

The only part that I would question on here is numbers. I think we’re all using numbers that are inferior data and not convinced the numbers from China right now are automatically untrue. Their lockdown was fast and more draconian.

china sending us 300 ventilators?? not sure what to think about that tbh

As long as they are decent quality and will benefit people, I don't give a fuck where they come from. After this is all over, think the UK will need to look carefully at what they manufacture here, and what they are reliant on importing, though.

They have not banned wet markets. They have banned markets which sell wild animals for consumption.
Wet markets and the type of markets where exotic species were sold are not the same.
Additionally, Shenzhen has banned markets selling cats and dogs for consumption.

China was just unlucky

China was just unlucky .. twice in less than twenty years from the same cause.

the virus was traced to a seafood market in Wuhan, not a wet market. They think it was black market trade in wild animals that went on at this seafood market that might have been when the transmission happened. China has already banned wet markets and so everyone saying that China needs to do this can rest assured, it’s already been done

You are ... so ignorant. Seafood market is just the name, there would be other venders as well. My vegetable market, named a vegetable market, also used to sell butchered meat, does that mean the name was wrong?!?

Also, China has not banned or closed wet markets. They have restricted the sale of wild animals, which is something (they did the same for civet cat after SARS, but we all know how that went). There is no problem with wet markets, but likely some problems with live animal markets and serious problems with wild animal wet markets.

As to whether or not the wildlife trade was banned in Wuhan (no national ban on this previously) is immaterial. In China, only the level of current enforcement matters.

So I do not blame China for the delay in realising that this was not just an bad winters uptick in flu caused pneumonia but something new and deadly

I blame local authorities for placing more emphasis on stopping rumours and punishing doctors for speaking out on this novel virus. Xi Jinping’s government has set the tone for this, you can read any number of articles on how his government has tightened dissent by classing it as ‘spreading fake rumours’

it is OK for the U.K. to count COVID cases and deaths using their own methods but if China uses a different method, then it is lying

Okay, but stating the number is just over 3,000 when WaPo has estimated it could be over 40,000 .... is not using a different method. It’s covering up and lying. Countries were basing their response on totally fake numbers.

Why do you insist on carrying their water? Do you think the Chinese government deserves your apologetics?

Numbers in China were increasing at a huge rate back in February and the virus had spread to every province.
Why did govts ignore those numbers?

China has already banned wet markets

Fake news. @PlanDeRaccordement

Why do you insist on carrying their water? Do you think the Chinese government deserves your apologetics?

Great question.