What are your thoughts on China ?

[Wetfloortiles]

Very interested in this.

I don't believe their numbers for a start, and I do feel they should take responsibility for this global pandemic.

[BovaryX]

Can you explain precisely which part of the government's comments in that article you find objectionable? @Porseb

[BovaryX]

A lot of my friends in Asia have kids at uni's in England and they all left several weeks ago

So what? Choosing to leave is not the same as being 'sent home.'

[oldbeforem]

@Porseb China have said that the US ‘owe them an explanation’ and even tried to suggest it started on Italy. There’s not claiming responsibility and there’s flat out trying to blame other countries.

The fact that this virus started and spread (they silenced worried doctors) and only told the WHO when they absoloutley had to / when it was too late is their fault.

I’m sorry you have experience awful behaviour but there is a difference between ignorant racists blaming anyone Chinese and people discussing mistakes and lies from the the Chinese government.

[Porseb]

@bovaryx say you have a child at uni in New York, would you be advising them to stay put or come home?

There's also the small matter of countries asking overseas citizens to return before borders close - the same as the U.K. has been doing.


www.wsj.com/articles/governments-ask-their-citizens-to-come-home-as-coronavirus-cases-spread-11584528789

[ChazsBrilliantAttitude]

The challenging thing with these sorts of discussions is the conflation of a nation/race with their Government. This is particularly problematic where it is an authoritarian regime.
Individual Chinese people did not choose their Government.
They cannot control their Government.
They have died because of decisions that Government has made.

So people do need to be clear that the primary issue is how the Chinese Government have handled this.

[Porseb]

@oldbeforem - can you link to your information please?

[Porseb]

The primary issue for us in the U.K. is how our government is choosing to handle this.

There are drs and nurses dying who don't need to be dying. We had weeks to start getting staff trained in proper use of masks and PPE and ensuring we had the equipment we needed

[oldbeforem]

I think you must already know the info I am talking about but here’s one (of many of you google)

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/608332/

Am I right in thinking that you agree China have handled this week and truthfully?!

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

But they will never own up to their mistakes

Exactly - because to do so would involve losing face

TBF western politicians aren't good at admitting fault either, but then the west on the whole doesn't share China's truly appalling human rights record ... and to carry on treating a population this way they need to be seen as irreproachable and beyond even the mildest criticism

Otherwise the entire house of cards falls in and they certainly won't allow that

[BovaryX]

@Porseb You stated earlier that International students were sent home which suggests against their volition. That is directly contradicted by the article I have linked which states universities were providing free accommodation to enable students to remain. Choosing to leave the UK is not the same as being 'sent home.' Your statement was false.

Speaking with The Guardian, an unnamed vice-chancellor of a Russell Group university said that a complete shutdown of their institution would be impossible as students would be left with nowhere to go.“We couldn’t fully close. What do you do with thousands of international students who can’t go home?” they said, adding that their university would provide free accommodation for international students who were stranded, even if the UK government told them to shut.

[Porseb]

This is what I don't get - we call China out because we say their numbers aren't true

But our numbers in the U.K. aren't either.

This is down to the fact that the U.K. abandoned the strategy of testing and tracing (around 13th March) and told people with symptoms to stay home.

Then we started testing ONLY people who were ill enough to be admitted to hospital.

So our true numbers are FAR, FAR higher

But we keep saying China's lying about it's numbers 🙄

I'm of Chinese ethnicity but not from China so I have no interest in defending that government.

However I live and pay taxes here and vote here and work in the NHS - my loyalties are here and I'm more interested in HOW we're dealing with this here.

[oldbeforem]

@Porseb but the UK aren’t pretending that their numbers are accurate - we know they aren’t testing everyone and we know deaths outside of hospital aren’t included.

Ours aren’t accurate because they don’t seem to have the testing capability. China’s aren’t true because they are lying to make it less of a PR disaster.

[Porseb]

@BovaryX - you're nitpicking

Many were told their universities were closing and some chose to leave - some felt they didn't have a choice, some parents understandably didn't want their kids in a country in the eye of the story they could see were coming


www.theguardian.com/education/2020/mar/18/cambridge-colleges-criticised-for-asking-students-to-leave-over-coronavirus

[Porseb]

So @oldbeforem

What you're saying is

Our numbers are wrong because we can't test

Their numbers are wrong because they're lying

Interesting

[BovaryX]

@oldbeforem
Thank you for linking to the Atlantic article. The concerted attempt to 'manage the narrative ' is evident across the media...
.

[Puzzledandpissedoff]

Interesting piece about pressure to rescind Huawei's deal to build Britain's 5G network, though whether it's just sabre rattling or might actually happen is anyone's guess

Then again, some feel we were mad to offer such a security-risking opportunity to such a regime in the first place - and while Trump's rightly blamed for a lot, it could have been even worse had he not interfered

[oldbeforem]

@Porseb people are either dead or they aren’t.

No countries testing is likely to be accurate.

I think it’s very very unlikely that a country with a much larger population will end up with more deaths than Spain, Italy and the UK.

Do you think China’s death toll is truthful?

[Porseb]

Managing the narrative happens right across the board - in the east and the west

That's why I came on this thread

Also because of some people are being manipulated into China blaming and taking it out on people like me. It's happening in the U.K. and on the US - rise in numbers of racial abuse incidents against people of Chinese origin

[BovaryX]

BovaryX - you're nitpicking @Porseb
Nope. Sorry. That's not going to cut it. You stated that internal students were 'sent home' and suggested this was a forcible repatriation by the UK government. I have already linked to an article describing how UK universities are providing free accommodation so International students can remain. Words matter. Your statement was misleading.

[BovaryX]

International students

[tempester28]

This country should be testing much more, but there is no deception, we all know that those being tested are people who have presented with significant illness (apart from those who are not so ill but have paid for private tests) We all know that many people don't get symptoms and therefore in this country are not tested and not included in the count.

[Porseb]

@oldbeforem

People dying in hospitals are only counted as covid victims

People who die outside but not tested aren't counted

They're still all dead

[runrabbitrunrunrun]

If anyone dares to speak out then they are killed, go ‘missing’ or go into hiding.
www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-whistleblower-doctor-li-wenliang-in-critical-condition-2020-2
I wouldn’t be surprised if this thread gets taken down tbh.

[MangoFeverDream]

But we keep saying China's lying about it's numbers 🙄

Not testing everyone and hiding deaths by a huge factor are very different. No country has the same testing regime; I believe Japan does not really bother testing either, and some say that they are hiding deaths (I don’t believe that for a moment, btw)

But Washington Post ran an article estimating that over 40,000 died in Wuhan; I recommend giving it a read, it was very sad.

I do agree that wet markets are not the problem; it’s the live animal wet markets, including wild animals but also livestock. I never went to a wet market with live animals in Beijing; I believe city regulations didn’t allow it, they offered butchered meats similar to a butchery.