Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

Not much of history is 'fair'.

However, I do think that the creation of Israel after millenia of persecution culminating in the Holocaust is one of the 'fairer' events.

Of course this was desperately unfair to many many native Arabs who lost their homes and livelihoods.

But again, it didn't have to mean war. Palestinians could have accepted the division of land, and declared a state, and now theyd be much better off. The leadership of that time is absolutely partly to blame for what has become of Palestinians since. Thats not fair on them either is it?

You think it was 'fair' to try to wipe out people who'd just escaped the Nazis?

I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

I find it extraordinary that someone would not know this already.

Or know that Jews were expelled from across Britain several centuries ago, and that as recently as the middle of the nineteenth century - so around 150 years ago - you couldn't take a degree or hold public office if you were Jewish. In this country.

There is a 2,000 year history of extrme prejudice and violence against Jews. Hitler was just doing what a lot of other leaders have wanted to do for a long time.

And it hasn't gone away.

Nothing is ever fair!

But, you need to understand that the area that was Palesine and is now Israel was actually placed under a British Mandate* as of the treaty of Versailles... before that it was part of the Otterman Empire. The creation of Israel was indeed done under the British Mandate as a solution to the problem. People living in these areas haven't had autonomy for centuries. There was indeed very little that they could do other than low level guerilla warfare...

• posh word for colony to make is easier to understand. Although there is more to it than being simply a colony...

I’d love a response to this one by the historian that is the OP!

At least we can agree that it was an unfair solution which, by logical deduction, means that Israel only has a right to exist afforded to it by might as a result of near unconditional support from the West but has no moral right to exist as the apartheid state that it is.

So you think Israel has no moral right to exist as it is?

OK, thats quite extreme, and very bold of you.

Any other countries you think have no moral right to exist as they are? Or just Israel?

At the expense of the indigenous population. By your logic then, if someone steals from me, it is perfectly fair for me to steal from someone else.

Occupied Nothern Cyprus. Shouldn’t exist.

I said as an apartheid state. I would have said the same of South Africa in the 80’s. If, on the other hand, it gives the Palestinians complete equal rights including the right to vote, as South Africa did, I would have a lot more sympathy for them. Of course this would mean it could no longer call itself a Jewish state but if that is a set in stone requirement, perhaps they should have found some land that wasn’t already populated.

It was in my view right to create a homeland for Jewish people, the holocaust was the most horrific and horrible manifestation of prejudice against jewish people, sadly not the first time such prejudice occurred. Israel is in comparison with much of the Middle East freer and democratic. Israel needed to build up its defence to protect itself, I have heard people blame Israel's poor defence for allowing October 7th to take place which I just find increadable. Israel is surrounded by countries that do not really want it to exist and tolerate its existence rather than support its existence.

Artificially created countries breed conflict through a festering sense of injustice. Look at India/Pakistan, N/S Ireland.

I do not see an end to this conflict. This is the legacy of how the "solution" was drafted in the first place. Western countries are notoriously bad at understanding indigenous peoples, but still wade in with their solutions like ignorant magicians.

Arab Palestinians / Israelis who live in Israel proper do indeed have the right to vote. Palestinians who live in what should be the official Palestinian State also vote, heard of Fatah? Hamas? Who voted for them if Palestinians can't vote?

Or are you arguing for a one state solution? Have you thought through what that wpuld mean for the only Jewish nation in the world?

But don't worry, you've made yourself clear with this-

'Of course this would mean it could no longer call itself a Jewish state but if that is a set in stone requirement, perhaps they should have found some land that wasn’t already populated.'

That put you firmly in the camp of Not Worth Responding To.

There is a list of over 65 Israeli laws that discriminate directly or indirectly against Palestinian citizens in Israel and/or Palestinian residents of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) on the basis of their national belonging. Since the establishment of the state, Israel has relied upon these laws to ground their discriminatory treatment of Arab citizens and allow the unequal status and unequal treatment of Jewish and Arab citizens to persist.

It’s an apartheid state, not a democracy.

It's possible to criticize the Israeli state while still using the words 'apartheid' and 'democracy' correctly- in fact it would strengthen your argument.

What on earth are you on about now?

Is there a list of laws from surrounding Arab/Muslim countries that show their discriminatory treatment of Jewish people?

How many Jews had/have residency and equality before and after 1948 in Jordan and Egypt, let alone all the other countries they were expelled from and slaughtered in?

Can Jews live or even enter Ramallah, Nablus, Bethlehem or Jericho without risk to their lives?

Answer that then answer how many Arabs live in Israel?

Do you mean Israel is an apartheid state against people who wish to annihilate their Jewish citizens, and therefore practises discriminatory treatment towards them?

The settler violence is abhorrent. But it is condoned by Israel

Why would people who are NOT Israelis have equal rights to Israelis and rights to vote in Israeli elections?

Do you consider France an apartheid State because the British don’t have equal rights to French citizens and can’t vote in French elections?

Or does that only apply to Israel?

The Palestinians who live in Israel are by citizenship, Israeli. So they should have equal rights. Yet they don’t.

Yes I am for a single state solution. I think it is a far better solution than a two state solution because I don’t believe Israel wants to give up any land. To the contrary, they want more. You are right about the risk to a Jewish state but so what. It could still be a safe homeland for Jews, Christians and Muslims as it was before the concept of European Zionism.

Thanks for creating this thread, it clarifies alot and in a factual way without judgment.

There would never have been discrimination against Jews in the Arab countries if it hadn’t been for European Zionism and an invasion of Palestine. I agree it is antisemitic which I wish hadn’t happened but I can understand why it did. It was actually also encouraged by Mossad to make Jews who were living happily in those countries to move to Israel. Most of those countries had Jewish ministers, let alone just voters.

As far as the Palestinian towns you talk about, I wouldn’t recommend a European Jewish person trying to go there unarmed any more than I would have recommended a white South African to go to Joberg in 1980. There is a very good reason. Of course the Israeli army regularly goes into those towns in the middle of the night and invades houses scaring the hell out of the residents for no other reason than to intimidate them.

As far as the number of non Jewish Israeli’s, it’s 20%. A figure that is not arbitrary, it’s a level that is by design.

Absolutely yes in exactly the same way that South African was an Apartheid state.

I’m really sorry but that is an absolutely ridiculous statement. France has not, currently, invaded Britain and then holding elections in Britain while excluding British people from voting. If they did then obviously it would be aparthied.

@Thedawnchorus ’It could still be a safe homeland for Jews, Christians and Muslims’

It is already that. It’s the Muslim terrorists that are the problem.
I don’t here anything about the Christians and Jews going at it, just the Muslims.

The Jews have been attacking the Christians though, or did you miss that bit?