Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

Theres history and there’s what’s happening right now. Israel is a failed project.

In what sense is it a failed project?

It exists.
It can defend itself.
It has a self sustaining economy.
It has powerful allies.
It has rule of law.
Its citizens enjoy a decent standard of living.

If anything, the Palestinian state is a failed project.

Terrible human rights record.
Lawlessness and violence on the streets.
Dependant on aid.
Highly questionable allies.
Split government.
No democracy.
Occupied.
Half completely demolished.
Its citizens suffering from homelessness and hunger.

Time to try some new tactics maybe?

Explain to me exactly how Israel is a failed project?

"Hostility between Iran's government and Israel means Iranian Jews are often subject to official mistrust and scrutiny."

Aye what a fucking paradise.

That article is 18 years old and completely irrelevant.

Unsurprisingly, some Jews of Iran would like to remain in their homeland where they have ancient roots and an incredibly strong, distinct national and cultural identity.

It's also unsurprising that the tiny population of Jews that remain and are tolerated in Iran would vocally reject Israel and Zionism to be safe as Zionism is prohibited by law by the current regime. Even acknowledging any love or respect for Israel or the religious significance or meaning of Israel to them as Jews is impossible and any connections or communications with Israelis can be prosecuted as the crime of "spying for Israel" and punishable by execution.

Those Jews should be grateful they are only subject to mild persecution, is that right?

I think 'not too bad' was the most Jews could realistically expect anywhere, so a bit of mild persecution is probably fine in some people's minds.

Indeed. Rather hoped we'd moved on from that 🤷‍♀️

At least the 8,000 Jews left in Iran out of 100,000 only have to suffer being heavily monitored and censored and used as a tokenistic anti-Zionist mouthpiece in order to avoid being persecuted and murdered by the current regime so it's fine.

Well, exactly.

So, if life was so awful, why did thousands decline the £50,000 per family (2025 value) incentive to go to Israel ?

Try to stop seeing things in black and white terms, Israel good / Arab nations bad. Things are far more entwined, intricate and nuanced than that.

Arab citizens of Israel face similar or worse 'mind persecution' and apparently that's fine as they are able to vote. Either mild persecution is fine for both or neither.

Systemic discrimination against Arab Israelis is definitely something that needs addressing by Israel. Its not fine, I don't know why you'd say it is? Unless you think Arabs deserve discriminating against?

What discrimination exactly?

Disparity of outcomes between Arab and Jewish Israelis. I think it needs addressing.

That is very broad- specifically?

Palestine was never a country. Surely this is basic info that anyone can google?

Who was it’s leader? What was its flag?

Many Palestinians are not native to the region of Palestine. What are Arabs and where do they come from anyway? The clue is kind of in the name.

Many Jews, even outside of Israel, do have DNA links to Israel which was in the area where the Modern State is. This makes perfect sense as the area was historically a Jewish Kingdom. There has always been a Jewish presence in the area.

In fact Jews reclaiming their own land is one of the few examples of a displaced indigenous population returning to their land and recreating their own State.

At the end of the day. it doesn’t matter the people who are there now are the people who are there now.

It is only the pro-Palestinians who argue about whether Jewish people have a right to be in Israel and have their own State but have a big problem with anyone pointing out the same about the Arabs.

Christ, its hard to keep up with this thread. Israel is not a 'project'. Are there other countries whose governments you disagree with that you consider a 'failed project'? Or is your characterisation about something more than the current government?

Because as I've already said, they valued their strong, distinct ancient culture and identity as Jews in Iran and wished to stay in their homeland? Much like the hundreds of thousands of other Jews that no doubt valued their lives, histories and cultures in other MENA countries that persecuted and expelled them? It doesn't preclude life being difficult for Jews in Iran, many people choose to stay in their home countries despite life being less than ideal for them there. It also doesn't preclude Jewish communities in the MENA region having complex relationships and reactions to Israel.

Try to stop seeing things in black and white terms, Israel good / Arab nations bad. Things are far more entwined, intricate and nuanced than that.
I've never expressed anything even remotely close to Israel good/Arab nations bad. My family comes from several of those Arab nations so I suspect I have a considerably greater understanding of the nuance and intricacies of those nations, their Jewish communities and connections with Israel than some random armchair commentator. Having any attempt to discuss the situation in Iran and MENA countries be met with trite, simplistic nonsense such as this makes it pointless to continue.

I think people genuinely don't understand the Arab/Muslim conquest and have remarkably incurious minds.

Sorry, don't have time for specifics, knee deep in candy, but land zoning, maternal outcomes, life expectancy, wage gap etc.

I think probably comparable to systematic racial discrimination in the US. Technically same rights for all, significantly worse outcomes for black people. Likely to be systemic in that case.

Just my opinion.

Wasn’t it because many were elderly and only spoke Persian? I imagine it would be hard to emigrate in those circumstances and I suppose you get used to being treated in certain ways and naturally construct behaviours to avoid rocking the boat.

I wouldn’t say that’s evidence that life in Iran for Jews isn’t awful if they step out of line.

And Jewish communities don’t have these different outcomes in Arab states? All completely equal?

Do you really think that people not wanting to move away from the country they've lived their whole lives doesn't mean they're treated fairly? Moving to a place that's much more expensive, where you probably don't know anyone and where you might not even speak the local language is incredibly difficult, even if your quality of life would be better. Plus the fact that Jewish people who apparently are treated amazingly face extra restrictions and loopholes with travelling abroad, and any whiff that a Jewish person feels even slightly positively towards Israel can be fatal.

I suppose you also think women have it great there too. After all, if they don't then why don't they leave? And there's no Islamophobia in non-Muslim countries for that same reason either. Or is it only antisemitism you're continually determined to deny and minimise.