Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

Understanding what and where and why Armageddon is coming - your cherry on the cake

For a moment I thought you had grasped the creation of Israel in Biblical times, OP. I suggest you go and read the Bible from Genesis onwards, the answers are all there in the Old Testament.

What I really don't understand is why are the jews so universally hated? All they want is to live in peace like we all do. Luckily the Israelis have learnt to defend themselves and hopefully their attackers will think twice before trying again.

Sorry Boris, I cant let this one go. The way you put it here makes it seem like Palestinian Arabs owned the vast majority of the land and they were dispossessed to create Israel. Its much more nuanced than that.

Over 75% of the British Mandate became Jordan- Arabic.
The remaining 25% was split between Arabs and Jews- at this time these Arabs were not known as Palestinians- everyone living there was known as Palestinian, including Jewish people.
Approx 55% of the remaining 25 % was allocated to Israel by the UN.

So the actual split of the Mandate was approx 30% to Jews and 70% to Arabs. And a decent portion of the Jewish land was the Negev desert- not exactly prime real estate.

Of the land allocated to Israel / Palestine approximately 50% was state owned. It wasn't 90% owned by individual Arabs. So, approx 5% Jewish owned, 45% Arab owned, 50% state owned.

This seemingly never ending catastrophe would have been avoided had Palestinian leadership in 1947 accepted this admittedly less than ideal split of the land. That proposed split was much, much more advantageous to Palestinian Arabs than anyone considers realistic for a Palestinian state now. And perhaps, had that war not been declared, we'd now have 2 nations with majority / minority Jewish / Arab ethnicity living in relative peace.

But the decision taken at that time by Palestinian leadership was not to accept that split of land and to not admit the right of Jews / Israel for ANY LAND AT ALL. The Palestinian leadership backed by land grabbing Egypt and Jordan etc attempted instead to wipe Israel from the map entirely. They attempted another genocide of the Jewish people living there less than 3 years after the worst genocide the world has ever seen.

We read over and over about how pro Pal is anti genocide. But the Palestinian Arabs who failed to declare a Palestinian state back then, along UN lines, preferring to start a war- they were attempting a genocide on Jewish people who had just escaped the Nazi genocide. We dont hear so much about that anymore.

Like OP, I can see why Israel defends herself so aggressively.

Everytime Palestinians start a war, they lose, and they lose more of the land they could have had. And yet, it's always Israel's fault, and never Palestinians / Arab League of Nations / Hamas' fault.

Good Luck with the rest of this thread OP. I think you're brave ☺️.

If I've got any facts wrong here I'm happy to be corrected.

If you are pro-keeping a land for Jewish people @NameChangedUnderstandingGainedwhat price are you willing to pay for it?
This is a genuine question by the way, not goady, because it’s something on
paper that I’m in favour of, but actually not at the cost of any children’s lives.
Equally would you still feel the same if instead in 1948 the UN had decided that Scotland or a bit of Manchester was going to be the safe piece of land?

What happened to the Jewish people was indescribable and unforgivable however it's equally unforgivable for them to try and annihilate the people of another nation.

Agreed.

You can't honestly be trying to imply that what was done by the Nazis to Jewish people is the equivalent of what Israel is doing to Palestinians?

It sounds as though you've forgotten who started this war.

Israel's war on Gaza, however you feel about proportionality, cannot be compared to Hitlers completely unprovoked slaughter of Jews.

You've completely missed the point the OP is trying to make.

Except for this is historical revisionism that has been popularised in the last 40 years as a justification for the atrocities committed against Palestinians in the creation of and since the creation of modern Israel in 1948.

The plan to Colonize Palestine was set in motion long before World War 2. From the Christian Zionists in the 1800s like the Plymouth Brethren to Sykes-Picot and Balfour in 1916/1917. Herzl wrote in the 1890s about creating a Jewish state in Palestine (or Argentina) and "spiriting away the locals". Numerous zionist congresses spoke about the "Plan to Colonize Palestine".

The fact remains that Britain neither had the right or legal authority to give away Palestine and the atrocities committed by Germany in World War 2 do not change that.

No one is denying any of that. Jews were encouraged to move to the area of course. Its their homeland. Their blood and history originates there. Why shouldn't they? Honestly? Why shouldn't they?

Britain didn't do it. For God's sake. The UN proposed the partition. Many nations voted for it. Similar thing happened in many places all over the globe at that time.

Do you think Israel has the right to exist where it does?

Because it sounds like you dont believe it. That puts you in rather extreme company.

They are only following a bigger plan which is already predicted. Read the Bible - as hard that all is

The Bible....hmmm. Excuse me for not taking the content of that as gospel (and excuse the pun).

Yes the British were responsible as it was the Balfour Agreement secured after lobbying by the Zionist Chaim Weizmann that was adopted/incorporated into the League of Nations mandate for Palestine in the 1920s. That set the whole wheels on motion for this Colonial project.

Quick AI summary:

During WW1, Chaim Weizmann was instrumental in securing the Balfour Declaration, a letter from Arthur Balfour to Lord Rothschild in 1917 that supported a "national home for the Jewish people" in Palestine. Weizmann's role stemmed from his dual status as a leading Zionist and a British scientist, particularly his development of an acetone fermentation process crucial for the Allied war effort, which brought him to the attention of British leaders like Balfour and David Lloyd George. His scientific work provided a crucial link to the political lobbying efforts that led to the declaration.

Scientific contributions: Weizmann's invention of a fermentation process to produce acetone was vital for manufacturing munitions for the British war effort.

Political lobbying: His scientific contributions brought him into contact with key British officials, and he then led the Zionist movement's diplomatic campaign to gain British support for a Jewish national home in Palestine.
The Balfour Declaration: The declaration, published on November 2, 1917, was the result of Weizmann's efforts and was a major victory for the Zionist movement, which saw it as a crucial step toward statehood.

Thank you for adding some data.

It's a strange area of MN where posters invent stuff in this conflict in middle east area, although aibu is a bit of that too.

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Posters tend to jump in with their entrenched points but miss the original post. There are literally hundreds of threads and most that I have read are taken off point.

Again I didn't say what you are saying I said. Try reading what I said. I understand why Israel was created.

Since you keep repeating incorrectly what I didn't say, I'll ask again, are you drinking 🤔 How do you get through life making things up. Whats the point?

This! Jewish people persecuted and expelled for thousands of years

"Good Luck with the rest of this thread OP. I think you're brave ☺️."

I'm starting to understand why people don't bother with these threads and avoid them, when some just cannot read what is written and so invent stuff 😂 is it sad they do this or their way of keeping it about what they want to chat about.

Just because you went to Germany recently and have some sympathies with Israeli’s isn’t going to stop all the people around the world seeing it for what it is. Sorry.

It's a pity you don't because all the history is there, all the details you could want. And it's all factual! As time goes on, more and more of it is being shown to be true as more archaeological discoveries are made.

I must have missed the bit where

a) dairydebris posted that all humans aren’t equal

b) you gave anyone grounds for thinking you were going to be quiet

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I'm for a Jewish state. If terrorists attack then the terrorists need pursuing. That terrorists don't care about their children, their wives, their countrymen is tragic.

Cannot let terrorists continue to attack though. I doubt many countries would roll over and give up because terrorists attack. They'd fight back. Why shouldn't Israel fight back. I don't think other Arab countries trust Palestinians to make good choices so other Arab countries are supporting an interim group running Gaza in the meantime. Those other Arab nations cannot all be wrong, none of them seem overly keen on what choices Hamas have made on behalf of Gazans though.

Good lord. Honestly? I have no doubt all religious texts can fit anybodies needs when as.