Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

Not everyone in the UK has the vote, you need to be a British citizen. As I understand all who are citizens in Israel aside from the disputed territories do have the vote - that is a democracy.

Israel is under permanent threat from those who do not want it to exist.

So as long as two of those groups are willing to accept that one group is superior with preferential privileges everything will be hunky dory.

There are millions of people living in Israel who were there far longer than most of the Europeans and have no self determination and no right to say who rules them. You call that democracy?

From the Times of Israel:

On October 17, 2024, a Capuchin friar was walking through the park near the historic neighborhood of Yemin Moshe in Jerusalem when two Jewish teenagers spat at him without saying a word.
The unfortunately all-too-common episode is one of the 111 reported cases of attacks against Christians documented in a 2024 Annual Report by the Rossing Center for Education and Dialogue, released on Thursday.

I totally agree with this.
I think we also need to consider that Israel was a concept for almost 2000 years anchord within the Jewish faith.

Zionists wanted to make it happen: go back in time and have an country created by Jews for Jews. The United Nations made it happen with the help of the Europeans, most notably the British.

"You are right about the risk to a Jewish state but so what" So what! So Hamas and others who support or followed them into Israel on Oct 7th could do how they wish to individuals and you say so what. Unless the people decide to stop killing then it really wouldn't currently work. Cloud cuckoo land thinking won't happen until terrorists stop killing and no longer have that aim. The fence didn't stop Hamas and various other Palestinians so not having a fence is a bit of a step too far at the moment. Maybe in the future but not yet.

You can’t equate 2 arsehole teenagers spitting at a Friar with the countless murders commuted by the Islamists against the Jews.
Well, maybe the pro-pallies can, if it demonizes Jews.

one of the 111 reported cases of attacks against Christians documented in a 2024 Annual Report

Not just two asshole teenagers let’s be fair. Some Jewish people can be racists, I have seen videos of Israeli spitting at a chinese journalist who was there to show support for Israel (however day by day I do not know what video’s are real or AI these days but it did seem legit)

I think Israel has killed its fair share of Palestinians, Israel are not innocent in all of this, again lets be fair. Killing from both sides is wrong, and most of the dead will be innocent Israelis and Palestinians just trying to live in peace.

It’s not ridiculous at all. Saying that Palestinians in Palestinian Territories should have the same rights as Israelis in Israel is though. They are separate entities except where territory is disputed. It is just as absurd as my comparison.

Don’t the Palestinians outside of Israel have the PA and Hamas as their governing bodies? Are Jewish people allowed to vote and demand equal rights under them?

From my understanding Palestinians outside of Israel don’t want to be governed by Israel anyway. They want the all the land for themselves.

When did Israel invade the Palestinian Territories btw. Are you getting confused with Jordan and Egypt?

To be fair this spitting situation is disgusting and I don’t get it at all but I believe these are a small contingent of extremist Jews and I don’t think they have committed suicide bombings, plane hijackings, massacres of Olympic teams, taken teenagers hostage and murdered them, gone on stabbing and shooting rampages, car rammings, thrown Molotov cocktails, murdered while families in their beds, etc (all before Oct 7th) so not in any way comparative to the extremist contingent of Palestinians.

I also don’t think any Israeli soldiers or civilians have ever carried out an attack like Oct 7th and taken babies, young children and the elderly hostage, either.

I didn’t say they had? I said Israel (meaning the government) were not innocent in the situation, and that they had murdered thousands of Palestinians, most of whom would be normal people wanting to live in peace, and said the same of Israeli’s.

Hamas/ex leaders of Palestine are indeed terrorists, they need to be gone, they are not good to their own people, I don’t condone them, but they are not solely the bad guys Israel are also bad. IMO. Those in power don’t suffer innocent civilians always suffer, Jewish, Israeli, Palestinians and muslims.

I think there is a marked distinction between Israeli leaders and Palestinian leaders though.

Israeli leaders main goal is protecting their civilians and I believe they want to live to peace and don’t wish to annihilate Palestinians.

Palestinian leaders main goal is using their civilians as human sacrifices and collateral damage because they don’t want peace and do wish to annihilate the Jews.

That’s your opinion and thats fine

Do you know how many Palestinians were murdered that year until October 7th.

How is the land, sea and air blockade over Israel going. How is the limitation of calories per person going. Oh there isn’t any unlike Gaza.

Creating a homeland for the Jewish people is a lovely concept but placing it in the valuable strip of fertile land on the banks of the Jordan river surrounded by hostile nations wasn't the best location. Just because that's where the people originated is no reason to define that as the land chosen - humans are very adaptable to make homes anywhere, God is everywhere and "Earth's crammed with heaven / And every common bush afire with God" - somewhere else should have been chosen for a New Jerusalem, somewhere with relatively low population who were open to recieving appropriate compensation to relocate and with no historicale emnity with jewish people. I believe I have previously read that the British Mandate did seriously consider doing this and scoped out the possibility of assigning Madagascar as the new Jewish homeland.

As did the Nazzis.

Sorry? When was the British government overthrown and all British were put under military occupation by the French? Sometimes it feels like people are living in an alternate reality.

When government did Israel overthrow?

What country is Israel occupying?

Agree about the alternate reality.

Israel is currently occupying the Palestinian Territories. Israel has full financial and legal control over the Palestinian Authoriry who is not an independent entity, but a dependent arm of the Israeli government.

The OPT (Occupied Palestinian Territories) to use the standard UN nomenclature were invaded in 1967 by Israel and have been under military occupation to this day.

In your alternate reality, Palestinians are akin to British citizens living in the UK with full rights and are bafflingly wondering why they can’t also vote in French elections.

Your comparison only makes sense if Britain were a military occupied territory of France.

Or the 111 other things. But hey ho.

Well if you want to be Islamophobic, then I guess you’re good to go.

Another thing, you’re describing a scenario which implies there is already a two state solution in place and that the Palestinians have their own country. In all so called Palestinian territories they are under occupation and Israel has made it perfectly clear that they will never allow a Palestinian state. Saying Palestinians outside Israel is the most ridiculous statement. Israel occupies all potential Palestinian territory including Gaza. Just because they say they pulled out of Gaza is not an end to occupation. If you control the air, sea and land as well as what goes in and out, that is occupation.

Jews and Christians live in relative peace.
Islamists are the issue.

When I go to London, it’s not Jewish terrorism I’m worried about.

Last time I was in London it was a white, English thug who was causing problems at the station. Could be anyone. Doesn’t make me prejudiced though.