Deeper understanding of why Israel was created

[NameChangedUnderstandingGained]

I have recently visited Poland. Did a lot of reading. Visited a lot of historic sites and museums.

Oh My Gosh - I now REALLY understand why the British Mandate in Palestine created Israel. Even after the war ended Jews were still ostracised, blamed, killed, turned out of lands, unwelcome in many, many nations in Europe. The number of Jews were decimated, many survivors had to use assumed fake identification to survive, some fled to America, to Australia and Europe still wasn't safe or friendly for them hence Israel. One little bit of land where Jewish people originated, where the religion was first founded thousands of years before. A 2 state solution would have been good if both agreed and both wanted to live in peace and prosper. Israel never felt safe so built up a massive defence, built up a country and industry and wanted to prosper.

There is much harm that has been done to many peoples in history. However, the holocaust was unique. I have visited places where Jews no longer exist, they have all gone, millions died, the liquidation of Jews throughout lands, nothing Israel has done in a war is the same as this. The gas chambers, the extermination camps, the work until to drop then we kill you camps. It really is on another scale.

I am now totally pro keeping a land for Jewish people. I don't agree with settler violence but I do agree and understand why Israel needs to defend itself from terrorists who wish to wipe Jewish people from the earth just like the Nazi did.

What are you on about? It's getting comical now.

Not sure I understand. You went to Germany, and now suddenly understand the Israeli need to defend itself? Despite their need to destroy the Palestinians? Well? Go you. Keep being empathetic. We all need it.

I'm really puzzled here. On the one hand we're being told that people lose their land all the time, think of the aborigines, get over it and move on. And on the other hand, people that lost their land over 2,000 years ago have a powerful claim to the land that they lost.

It's so hypocritical it hurts.

Another reason why Israel was created after WW2 was the huge amount of European Jews that were held in refugee camps. Most notably in France and Cyprus ... Zionists, Haganah and Mossad l'Aliyah Bet did lobby in these camps for their cause and the creation of Israel.
This wasn't difficult, as the people in these camps were still held behind barbed wire with dreadful sanitation and very limited food supplies...
The creation of Israel was a British Allied UN solution to the problem of finding homes for displaced and broken people that clearly couldn't return to were they lived pre war.

Shh, it's not meant to make sense. That's the thing with exceptionalism/supremacism, one rule for me and another rule for thee...

Logically the argument espoused applied equally means that people that lost their land less than 80 years ago are fully entitled to claim it back......

I never went to Germany.

I understand the history of the Jewish people more than before and because they were still being hounded, persecuted, even after the war, understand why the need for a homeland. They have also been 'reduced in number' in almost all arab middle east countries, so those countries aren't safe for them.

I said I understand why they defend themselves from terrorists. The rest you made up. I have no idea why so many people hated and still appear to hate Jews. It's awful, so I understand their need to ensure they aren't victims of another genocide

Other things including I didn't say

Exactly. Lose it when you were a child, or when your parents lived there, perhaps you still have the keys to your grandparents home - how entitled are you, move along and get over it.

Lose it before the Roman empire even existed and it should be yours forever. What, because those people are more special or something?

You're right though, it's supremacism, which is vile racism in my book.

Correction. You went to Poland. And now understand. Well, I’m in awe!

Brilliant 👏 you should try history too, you might then begin to understand what so many others support and understand that Israel should exist. Doesn't mean no Palestine, both states should exist but terrorists cannot be allowed to kill people going about a music festival or in a oeace loving kibbutz.

And I do.

The worst genocide in modern history?! That's crazy even by the standards of exceptionalising Israel on this board

Genocide is about intent, but if you are talking about 'the worst' then numbers come into the equation because all of these had clear genocidal intent. Murders accompanied in most cases by sysyematic policies of rape.

Just some of the worst and most recent include

In 2002/3 Congo 40% of the pygmy population murdered in a systematic attempt to ethnically cleanse them

200,000 Hutus killed in Congo

Rwandan genocide - Wikipedia https://share.google/selYI0rVpU57wBeol
Up to a million killed

Cambodia, well over a million killed through mass executions, labour camps, starvation

And?

There is no genocide in Gaza.
Hamas should have worked towards a 2-state solution rather than starting a war.
All the bloodshed is on the hands of Hamas.

Despite some questionable deaths, which happen in every war (which is why nations don’t start wars against much stronger opponents) the IDF have done a great job in difficult circumstances. Hamas are fighting a Guerilla war from densely populated areas, using women and children as human shields.

Now they have been rescued from annihilation by Big Orange.

To BluntPlumHam, you said

"Oh I’m so sorry the world won’t let you get away with murdering innocent people en masse … throw all the tantrums in the world but the worst genocide in modern history has been committed/on going in Palestine and if after visiting Auchswitz you can’t see that then you’re very much part of the problem and reason why atrocities are allowed to go on."

This comment was directed to me and to another since covers a reply to another poster and also comments directly to me.

Perhaps you should actually go look at facts rather than ranting at people on here? Neither of us has been murdering people 'en masse'. Neither of us has had a tantrum (perhaps look to yourself for that!), neither of us are part of the problem that has led to this latest conflict following a massive terrorist attack, we are also not the problem that there are wars and too many deaths of innocents around the world. Try cutting the emotional language and use perspective, historical fact, calm down and then try again. Do you actually believe that shouting and screaming at people on here helps at all?

I won't bother to reply to someone who has no self control over their rantings. People don't tend to listen to this type of 'tantrum' to use your own language.

The old Testament is Jewish history. Are you saying their history is just made up to suit circumstances? Have you even read any of it? It's an amazing detailed history of how Israel came into being and the historical events that happened over thousands of years.

Yes it was. The Brits/League of Nations had taken it from the Ottomans. That was a time when empire and conquest still existed everywhere.

Later, when the British Empire was dismantled - because that was when the world was transitioning from empires to nations states - it was partially granted to the Jews who had a strong, historic claim to the land.

What it never was, was Palestine, and it never belonged (as a state) to the 'Palestinians' (who hadn't even been invented at the time).

You're confusing public land and private. The Jews owned about 6-7%, the Arabs 12-13%. The rest was public/unowned land. And the majority of what was offered to the Jews was dessert.

A 2:1 or even 3:1 civilian:combatant ratio in urban warfare is not only acceptable, but a really good outcome. You'll be hard pressed to find a other war with such a low rate of collateral damage.

It's amazing how Israel has managed to keep the civilian death rate so low despite Hamas's best attempts at getting as many of their innocent people killed as possible.

There was a distinction between public and private land under the British Mandate. But “public land” didn’t mean it was empty or uninhabited. Much of it was farmland, grazing areas, and villages used collectively by Palestinian communities for generations.

Even according to Zionist and British sources at the time, Jewish ownership was around 6–7% of the total land, while Palestinians (both private and communal) held the vast majority of the rest. The UN Partition Plan still allocated 55% of the land to a new Jewish state (ncluding many areas with a large Palestinian population) which is why Palestinians rejected it.

The “mostly desert” argument also doesn’t hold up well- the Jewish state was allocated some of the most fertile coastal and northern regions (like the Jezreel Valley and parts of Galilee), while much of the Negev desert later became developed after 1948.

I was coming to say this. And what's more, Europe and the US and Canada all refused entry to most of them. Israel exists to solve a European problem, and then Europe turns around and blames Israel for existing. I'm not even much of a Zionist, but I find it galling.

Even Israeli intelligence sources and independent analysts acknowledge that the civilian toll has been devastating.
The Israeli military itself estimated earlier this year that around two-thirds of those killed were civilians. The Associated Press, analysing Israel’s own figures, found the same pattern- a “combatant-to-civilian ratio” far worse than almost any modern urban war.

For comparison, in the Battle of Mosul (which Israel often cites), about one-third of the deaths were civilians and that was already considered catastrophic by US and UN officials.

So even if someone thinks 2:1 is “acceptable,” Gaza’s reality has been much higher than that and the result has been thousands of dead children. There’s really no moral version of that statistic that can be called a success.

Exactly! It's also interesting to note that a lot of the funds for Haganah and Mossad l'Aliyah Bet came from American Jews.... there was definitely a game of pass the buck with a sprinkle of not in my backyard going on.
I try not to take sides as this is such a complex issue unless one has a very deep understanding of 1900 - 1940 politics and knows both their European & middle Eastern history inside out, no-one can get a true understanding of the issues.

Thinking Allowed by Laurie Taylor, also did a very interesting programme on the origins of Yiddish and how it differs between different geographical areas.... again great for some interesting insights.

@Wedonttalkaboutboris
The Israeli military itself estimated earlier this year that around two-thirds of those killed were civilians.

Which is what a 2:1 ratio is, so exactly what I said. The lowest estimates for Mosul are 1:1 (50%), with other estimates ranging higher. Some wars have been up to 10:1 (Yugoslavia).

And let's not ignore or forget the fact the Hamas actively put their civilians in harm's way, whereas every other country tries to protect its civilians. Not only isn't there a single bomb shelter in all of Gaza, but the civilians weren't given access to the vast network of tunnels.

The high civilian death isn't a bug but a feature of Hamas's fighting style.

So let me get this straight. You are saying that because the Jewish people, all over Europe, were relentlessly persecuted for centuries culminating in the holocaust and then none of the European counties would help them, it is okay that not only the Palestinians, who had lived for centuries in Palestine, but the Mizrahi Jews, who lived happily all over the Middle East, had to suffer for crimes committed by Europeans. Could you explain to me how that is fair.