Pro-Israel - I don't understand

[plsexplaintome]

I've NCed for this as MN can be a vicious place lately, this thread may be a bad idea but hoping some genuine people will respond with their perspective.

Obviously there's a lot of nuance, but I don't understand how so many people seem to be pro Israel? My family are Jewish (I'm not as my mother isn't, but my dad's side are) and none of us support what Israel are doing. They say that as Jewish people, they don't want to see their people commit a genocide and push people out of their homes as this is exactly what's been done to Jewish people throughout history. And we don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to be against the actions of a government. (Though clearly some people are being antisemitic under the guise of defending Palestine)

Of course, Hamas has done awful things and I don't mean to say it's okay. But it seems like Palestine is fighting back after decades of oppression and violence committed against them by Israel. It's the actions of a desperate people - it's awful violence, but if it weren't for Israel, there would be no need for violence at all. You can't continually kick a dog and complain when it bites back?

I'm not looking for an argument so may not post again here as I don't want to argue withother opinions - I'm just hoping to hear from other perspectives. A lot of the media and public seem very pro Israel and I just don't understand. I'm not talking about protests here in the UK, as that's a whole other mess that's really muddying the waters and I'm not sure Palestinians would want these people speaking for them. If you are pro-Israel, please explain why as I feel I'm missing something here

But in just the same way we need to separate Jewish people, or more accurately, Israeli people, from the policies of Netanyahu and the IDF. We need to separate Palestinians from Hamas.

When in Jordan recently, I met and spoke to many Palestinians. All bar 1 was extremely disparaging about Hamas and the damage that organisation has done to Palestinians for decades before the horrors of what they did to the Israelis on 7/10.

Likewise, my neighbour is the leader of the local Chabad and doesn’t support the war on Gaza.

Spoiler - the crux of it is that Arabs (who colonised the area themselves prior to it being Ottoman territory for 400 years and called Southern Syria, NOT an Arab State), believe they have a right to ALL the land and they refuse to accept acceeding even a tiny part of it for a Jewish State despite the Jews being indigenous to the land and it being the Jewish ancestral homeland having had a Jewish presence for 3000 years

I don’t understand this argument at all. None of it matters. It doesn’t matter whether the Jews were indigenous to the land a long long time ago. It doesn’t matter that Arabs colonised the area before or that it went to the Ottomans. The Anglo Saxons came over to England about the same time. So what?
It doesn’t matter that there are lots of Arab states (they’re not a monolith). It doesn’t matter that there was no official state called Palestine. Statehood is after all just a means to an end.

What matters is that there were people living there, and that those local communities were displaced. Whether they felt Palestinian, Jordanian or whatever, they didn’t deserve to be forcibly expelled.

And nor do the Israelis who were born there now. They don’t deserve to be forced out.

There is no solution. Personally I’d like to see a one state solution. Equal rights for all. Take away the law imposing any religion and allow international right to return for 1948 refugees. Whoever is there now stays. But that’s hopelessly naive.

I don’t believe in God. I don’t believe God promised the land to anyone. If he did then why doesn’t he appear now and tell us all? It’s just about people having a safe place to live and enjoying equal rights.

Possibly that lovely one about the river and the sea.
I’ve mentioned it elsewhere - someone I know on FB, a typical “be kind”, love and rainbows person, with a mild attitude and friendly smile, put a “From the river to the sea” banner on their profile picture not long after October 7th.
I did wonder if they actually knew what that meant.

How do you think that compares with Afghanistan’s rate of 1% over 5 times as long?

And the same can be said for Al-Qaeda blending in with locals, huge underground tunnel networks etc.

There has been no independent evidence that Hamas were underneath the bombed hospitals.

With respect, "Palestinian" is a very loose term. They could be in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Chile, the United States, or Europe. Asking someone in Jordan what they think of what's happening in Gaza is like asking a Welsh person to comment on French politics. I don't think you can assume that what a Jordanian thinks about Hamas bears any relation to what a Gazan feels.

How Hamas and many Gazans feels about Israel and the people who live there was kind of trumpeted from the rooftops on 7/10/23 and its reception in Gaza, and yet people here in the UK still seem to persist in the delusion that they just want to live peacefully alongside Israelis. I wish with all my heart that that could be true, but it just... isn't.

No, I wasn’t using it as a loose term and I don’t believe that it is a loose term anyway.

Of the Palestinians I met in Jordan, 1 lives in the West Bank and commutes daily into Jordan to work, 3 others were born and bred in Gaza but had fled the country almost 20 years ago. All had family still living in Gaza. 1 of them, his 2 sisters were killed in the maternity hospital bombing.

Nothing like asking a Welsh person about French policies.

I have read a lot of good quality information and understand the background to the conflict much better than I used to. It is a huge mess and I honestly don’t know if it will truly be resolved in my life time . Given the complexities, I struggle with people who are tribal about the conflict.

Zionism used to be unpopular amongst Eastern European Jews. A majority of Jews wanted to get on with their lives in peace, making a life in the places where they reside rather than yearning for a land to call their own.

Wikipedia gives a fair summary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundism

The holocaust ruined this movement - it comprehensively dismantled the sense of safety that Jews living in Europe experienced. And drove the desire for a homeland for their own, free of antisemitism and threats to life.

The less safe people feel, the greater the calls on both sides for a safe place to reside in peace.

OK, fair enough, sorry!

It's a pity that the only Palestinians who can speak against Hamas are living outside Gaza. If that were different, it would change things immensely.

It is terrible. But then proper independent press isn’t allowed into Gaza so who knows what the Palestinians that live there might think.

I do know that it did cost a lot of money to be smuggled out of Gaza. There were apparently Egyptians traffickers who could arrange to get you out for somewhere in the region of US$10k per person before 7/10/23. It’s impossible now I believe. That sort of money is way beyond what most can afford so most were trapped.

I can't help feeling that some people apply the principles of social workers/education welfare officers to a brutal Middle Eastern culture they do not understand.

Spot on.

I totally agree, and I'm a Christian woman.

In fact there's a lovely little church that I keep in touch with, that's thriving, in Damascus.

Saying that, I'd move to Jordan as my first choice. I wouldn't have any concerns about that. It's easier and safer to be a Christian in Jordan than Israel, more freedom, guaranteed political representations. More integration in Jordan where Christians are highly regarded (and there are many more of them). Less harassment.

I'm not sure the lack of "proper independent press" is what keeps them silent, to be honest!

100% agree. I love Jordan and would live there without hesitation.

The town of Madaba is what the entire Middle East should be striving for. A melting pot of religions and cultures living harmoniously and respectfully as one community.

No, it’s what stops us from hearing them.

Wouldn’t be safe for me but before all this I’d always wanted to visit Jordan. Seen so many gorgeous holiday snaps from Petra so it was on my list for years.

I wish we did. It was interesting to read what you said about the cost of getting out. I have struggled with understanding with why anyone would choose to remain somewhere like that, with Hamas in charge.

THIS

I’m truly baffled at the number of people on here who support Israel’s actions against Gazans and don’t see the true goal of ‘Greater Israel’ as Netenyahu and most of his cabinet want. 7th Oct was a political gift to them - no way would Bibi still be in power, he’s managed to put off mutiple court appearances with his war mongering.

Posters minimising the catastrophic situation of the humans (they are humans even if you disagree with elements of their culture) living in Gaza must magically have avoided the apocalyptic photos showing before and after. It’s the absolute destruction of the land with zero pretence of avoiding civilian casualties or civic building destruction.

Israel owe it to Palestine to make it work. One state with equal rights for all.

Israel owe it to Palestine to make it work. One state with equal rights for all.

Are you kidding? Why does Israel owe it to Palestine, and not vice versa? And how would they suddenly live happily alongside each other? Many of the victims of 7/10 discovered that the Gazans they had been helping were actually Hamas informants who had been checking out where everyone would be that day.

Interesting how you say posters on here minimise the situation of people in Gaza, and then you go and reduce October 7th to a “gift” to Netanyahu and his cabinet.

I don't know how you can see the horror of 7 October or the war as a gift to anyone. Or what fantasy world you are living in that you think the Jews would have their rights protected in one state that they did not control. Here we are again, delegitimising the state of Israel.

@SharonEllis Do you remember that vile thread shortly after 7 Oct declaring that it had "given Israel the excuse it needed"? It seems to have been deleted now, but OMG it ran and ran as though this was a rational and humane response.

I’ve seen it too many times before, people describing October 7th as a gift to Netanyahu, just what the Israeli government needed as an excuse, and so on. It’s so cynical.

I agree. What an awful way to describe the 7th October Hamas atrocities.

I wasn't here straight after 7 Oct but its something ee see on these threads,often like a throwaway remark. It defies belief and just shows how little people understand about Israel and how deeply they have bought into the propaganda.

It's sick, like someone saying "acid gave Katie Piper the excuse she needed for cosmetic surgery." And yet so many people come out with it.