Pro-Israel - I don't understand

[plsexplaintome]

I've NCed for this as MN can be a vicious place lately, this thread may be a bad idea but hoping some genuine people will respond with their perspective.

Obviously there's a lot of nuance, but I don't understand how so many people seem to be pro Israel? My family are Jewish (I'm not as my mother isn't, but my dad's side are) and none of us support what Israel are doing. They say that as Jewish people, they don't want to see their people commit a genocide and push people out of their homes as this is exactly what's been done to Jewish people throughout history. And we don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to be against the actions of a government. (Though clearly some people are being antisemitic under the guise of defending Palestine)

Of course, Hamas has done awful things and I don't mean to say it's okay. But it seems like Palestine is fighting back after decades of oppression and violence committed against them by Israel. It's the actions of a desperate people - it's awful violence, but if it weren't for Israel, there would be no need for violence at all. You can't continually kick a dog and complain when it bites back?

I'm not looking for an argument so may not post again here as I don't want to argue withother opinions - I'm just hoping to hear from other perspectives. A lot of the media and public seem very pro Israel and I just don't understand. I'm not talking about protests here in the UK, as that's a whole other mess that's really muddying the waters and I'm not sure Palestinians would want these people speaking for them. If you are pro-Israel, please explain why as I feel I'm missing something here

"poking the bear" too true, @YorkshireGoldDrinker . It's become very polarised as a debate, and simplified so much so that very basic facts are either misinterpreted or ignored.
Martin Gilbert is a good historian, so you could start with that, or Edward Said, Sebag Montefiore et al. I found Jimmy Carter's book interesting - many world leaders have, to their credit, attempted to broker peace.
You may remember the peace accords with Begin and Sadat. Sadly, both men were assassinated. It certainly didn't start in 2023.

@LeticiaMorales I find the breakdown of the peace accords so upsetting. To think where we could be if that willingness to broker peace had prevailed.

Just want to thank everyone who has taken the time to respond thoughtfully.

For background, for many years I've been vaguely pro-Palestine, mostly as I read a lot of Angela Davis who has been vocally pro-Palestine for decades, and through talking with my dad about it. But now the issue has come more to the forefront I'm thinking more about it and wanting to learn more. I'm quite behind as I've had 2 babies in the last 2.5 years! Trying to catch up on my reading and learning now

I couldn't agree more. That stood a real chance, and when I think about where we are now, it's very frustrating.

Oh god. Another one

This point has really helped me expand my thinking, thank you

Key GCSE texts are often really helpful as starters: "The Arab Israeli Conflict" Tony McAleavy (Cambridge University Press) or the Hodder Education "Conflict in the Middle East".
That could lead you on to further reading with different authors about different aspects.
It's also geo- political: a good knowledge of borders, accords and agreements is useful.
There have been many.

I have similar thoughts to you OP, and it’s not ‘faux naivety’, it’s similar to me thinking ‘I just cannot get how people believe men can become women’. Of course I have read where they are coming from and could discuss the reasons that ‘the other side’ believe what they do - but I can’t understand how that was their conclusion, when seeing the same evidence I see. If that makes sense. And really not trying to start a trans bunfight nested in another bunfight - just articulating the ‘why do so many people think this?’ confusion that I think OP is expressing.

That's ok, I think it's very positive that you're trying to unpick this, whatever your conclusion may be. As I said (qv) the worst aspect is the woeful ignorance of the basic facts by some people. These are human lives, and a complex solution cannot be achieved peacefully if it's just about slogans.

Good points, @Jollyjoy . I think sometimes you really have to dig into both sides' thinking on these issues. I know what you mean about the trans debate.

I agree it's enormously complicated and hard to unpick which isn't helped by online discussions being a bin-fire. CBBC do really good background information on current events - worth looking at their website for easy explainers! Aimed at children but very concise and clear.

Surely it’s clear why people support either one side or the other: it’s down to interpretation of the facts. Who started it, who was just defending themselves, whether that self defence was justified etc. I think with this particular issue people pick a side and become entrenched and stop engaging with anything that might challenge their perspective. I don’t think it’s anything like as clear as the trans issue, where one side just wanted to completely redefine material reality.

@Goldfsh true, information for children (from a reputable source) is very useful, often clear and not bogged down with entrenched viewpoints.

Good points, @GreatWhiteJar , particularly about people not wanting to engage with anything which challenges their viewpoint.

I think as a starting point it’s important to accept that there are going to be more people you disagree with in the world than agree with. I cannot for the life of me understand the various aspects of women being hated / treated differently in various religions. My hill to die on is being vehemently pro choice and I will never understand a thing about people who aren’t. There is very little point in debating either of these things with people who are strongly on the opposite side - we have no points of discussion, we will just disagree forever.

This conflict has been going on for thousands of years. There’s nothing new to say, there’s no precise answer of what’s right or wrong and thousands or millions of people have already been through it over and over again. I can say that the structure of your question is already problematic - being ‘pro Israel’ can be taken several different ways. If I ask if you are ‘pro UK’ what does that mean to you? Are you pro the current government or pro the history of colonisation or pro Brexit or pro fish and chips? What would it mean to be ‘pro-France’? Are you saying you are pro France existing or pro it’s complicated history or… what? Asking people if they are pro or anti a country is an odd question.

OP, I have been listening to a wonderful podcast series about the history of Palestine and Gaza. It is a history Podcast called Empire. The presenters are Anita Anand and William Dalrymple and they have guest academics on too.

I think with such a long spanning conflict, it is important to go back to the beginning and try to understand the history before we can make any sense of the present.

Start with episode number 291 as that is the beginning of the Palestine series. The podcast is done very sensitively and without bias.

Good points, @PurpleThistle7 . Thanks for the recommendation, @Franpie . I've read a few of William Dalrymple's books and have found him to be an intelligent and engaging author.

I’ll tell you why I am pro-Israel.

In the late 1930s my paternal grandparents got on boats from Salonica in Greece and Ismir in Turkey, escaping Nazi and Muslim persecution, respectively. They landed in Mandatory Palestine and built lives there from nothing. When the State of Israel was founded in 1948 they became citizens. On the other side of the world, my maternal family were not so lucky - except for the branch that had made it to England, they all perished at Auschwitz, including babies and children. Every Jewish family I know has stories like this.

Now there is a state for all Jews, regardless of location and background, can find safety. My family and I are planning to move there as soon as we can, after several antisemitic attacks on us and our young children, and my losing a book deal due to being Jewish.

Israel is much maligned and misunderstood. It is not an apartheid state. Arabs hold jobs in all echelons of society, including the courts and parliament. Step onto any bus and you’ll see people of all colours - Christians and Muslims alongside the Jewish majority. It is a tiny island of democracy and civil rights surrounded by Islamic theocracies where women are chattel and LGBTQ+ people are thrown off buildings or correctively raped.

There is ONE Jewish state in the world. And it just happens to be the country that is most maligned and criticised. Think about that and ask yourself why.

October 7 and its aftermath laid bare what I had always suspected to be the case. Many people will support ANYTHING, however murderous, however far it veers from their values, if it means standing against the world’s only Jewish state.

I recommend the book “The Left’s Jewish Problem”, which gives some good background on how the Palestinian issue gained such a stranglehold on British academia and culture.

Well to guide your reading I suggest becoming very familiar with the IHRA definition of antisemitism as you will get a lot of 'Israel is a colonialist/racist endeavour'. You can avoid those people for a start.

https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

This will help you to understand why such statements are usually motivated by antisemitism.

The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False - The Atlantic share.google/dBRPiSLwxW0XGOCGq

There's a The Rest Is Politics podcast episode on this that was soon after the 7th October. I thought it did a reasonable job of explaining the background.

I unfortunately saw a video on Twitter, soon after 7th October. If was of Hamas men spitting on the naked dead body of a young Jewish girl who was dumped on the back of a truck. Crowds of men joined to spit on her body and beat her with sticks. I know evil when I see it. I think that Israel have caused harm to women and children in Gaza, but I think this, versus what I saw in the video and was verified by respected news outlets, is morally distinct.

People always say how many children there are in Gaza. Ask yourself why? The total lack of curiosity about the way Palestinian men treat Palestinian women is curious to me, when concern for those women and children is often put to forward by people who are very much on the Palestinian side. Israel is the only country in the middle east where women have full human rights. Many Palestinians live and work in Israel, whereas the reverse is not the case.

Bit rambling, but those are some of my reasons for not waving the Palestinian flag.

I agree that the "colonial" label is at best misunderstood, and at worst wilfully misapplied. I think we're treading a dangerous path with that being a reason for a nation not to exist (or "dismantled" as one protester said yesterday).
It's as if the clock could be turned back to suit certain sensibilities, or conflicts and resolutions ignored.
Perhaps the Native Americans could say that about the USA. That's surely a "colonial project".

I think there is a widely held misconception that Jews didn’t exist in the Middle East until 1948 and that after the war European Jews came in and stole a country. It’s not that simple. There have been Jews on that land(which was British) as well as Jordan, Lebanon, Syria etc etc forever. Additionally Jews had been travelling there since the 19th century as it’s always been their holy land. Jerusalem is the equivalent of Mecca for Muslims. After Israel was officially created it became impossible for them to stay in neighbouring Arab and Levantine countries. It was hard before but now they were expelled. Where would they go? Where could they go?
It’s also worth mentioning that Arab countries have not done anything to help Palestinians- they are used as collateral.
And yes, October 7th was an act of war. Israel is surrounded by countries who wish them anihalated. Rightly or wrongly if you come for Israel they are going to come back harder, because it’s a matter of survival.
I hate Netanyahu, it’s tragic they don’t have a more moderate leader. The occupying fundamentalists should have been evicted from those territories years ago. What is happening now is appalling. But equally, to negotiate with terrorists invites more terrorism.
And anyone who doesn’t have real knowledge of the area who has a black and white view of any of this doesn’t really understand it. Experts who live there don’t have the answers so some uk student union gobshite over here DEFINITELY doesn’t.
My prayers are for peace, a 2 state solution, democracy in Palestine (unlikely) and Hamas to slither off back to the Hell that spawned them.

Of course, Hamas has done awful things and I don't mean to say it's okay. But it seems like Palestine is fighting back after decades of oppression and violence committed against them by Israel. It's the actions of a desperate people - it's awful violence, but if it weren't for Israel, there would be no need for violence at all. You can't continually kick a dog and complain when it bites back?

What did Shani Louk do to "kick the dock"? What did the Bibas children do that there was a need for violence?

How? What the Israeli government doing is a genocide. That isn't OP being naive?