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Conflict in the Middle East

Pro-Israel - I don't understand

259 replies

plsexplaintome · 08/10/2025 09:11

I've NCed for this as MN can be a vicious place lately, this thread may be a bad idea but hoping some genuine people will respond with their perspective.

Obviously there's a lot of nuance, but I don't understand how so many people seem to be pro Israel? My family are Jewish (I'm not as my mother isn't, but my dad's side are) and none of us support what Israel are doing. They say that as Jewish people, they don't want to see their people commit a genocide and push people out of their homes as this is exactly what's been done to Jewish people throughout history. And we don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to be against the actions of a government. (Though clearly some people are being antisemitic under the guise of defending Palestine)

Of course, Hamas has done awful things and I don't mean to say it's okay. But it seems like Palestine is fighting back after decades of oppression and violence committed against them by Israel. It's the actions of a desperate people - it's awful violence, but if it weren't for Israel, there would be no need for violence at all. You can't continually kick a dog and complain when it bites back?

I'm not looking for an argument so may not post again here as I don't want to argue withother opinions - I'm just hoping to hear from other perspectives. A lot of the media and public seem very pro Israel and I just don't understand. I'm not talking about protests here in the UK, as that's a whole other mess that's really muddying the waters and I'm not sure Palestinians would want these people speaking for them. If you are pro-Israel, please explain why as I feel I'm missing something here

OP posts:
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RealDiscussionNotHate · 08/10/2025 22:39

Imtootired · 08/10/2025 14:21

I’m not exaggerating when I say that this is one of the most stupid and ignorant things I’ve ever read online. You consider Palestine a state? In what way? The whole conflict is based on the fact that they don’t have a state and they are occupied by Israel. And the reason it’s been declared a genocide but every major human rights organisation is because Israel is killing civilians and not soldiers because Gaza is not a nation state and doesn’t have a military like a nation state would have. If you want to be this ignorant about the basic facts of a conflict in which thousands of people are dying then don’t bother commenting at all. Really bizarre comment.

Don't you realise that they have turned down their own state numerous times, they wanted all the land and no Israel .... problematic that was to many other countries and rightly so! Now if they actually agreed a state from the beginning, no missiles and spent money on making a great state and a brilliant one for the people..... but alas they didn't, so here we are still moaning no state despite turning a state down numerous times, rinse repeat

RealDiscussionNotHate · 08/10/2025 22:42

inamarina · 08/10/2025 20:53

Possibly that lovely one about the river and the sea.
I’ve mentioned it elsewhere - someone I know on FB, a typical “be kind”, love and rainbows person, with a mild attitude and friendly smile, put a “From the river to the sea” banner on their profile picture not long after October 7th.
I did wonder if they actually knew what that meant.

That type usually actually know very little history but lots of 'soundbites' and 'slogans' dim and useful to some

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 22:54

Franpie · 08/10/2025 21:04

No, I wasn’t using it as a loose term and I don’t believe that it is a loose term anyway.

Of the Palestinians I met in Jordan, 1 lives in the West Bank and commutes daily into Jordan to work, 3 others were born and bred in Gaza but had fled the country almost 20 years ago. All had family still living in Gaza. 1 of them, his 2 sisters were killed in the maternity hospital bombing.

Nothing like asking a Welsh person about French policies.

I don’t believe a word of this. Mainly due to the person commuting to a whole other country to work. Where do they commute from in the WB? Which border crossing with Jordan? You are lying to make a point. By the way, in Jordan did you visit a synagogue or meet any Jewish people?

Nyungnyung · 08/10/2025 22:57

SameOldHill · 08/10/2025 20:46

Spoiler - the crux of it is that Arabs (who colonised the area themselves prior to it being Ottoman territory for 400 years and called Southern Syria, NOT an Arab State), believe they have a right to ALL the land and they refuse to accept acceeding even a tiny part of it for a Jewish State despite the Jews being indigenous to the land and it being the Jewish ancestral homeland having had a Jewish presence for 3000 years

I don’t understand this argument at all. None of it matters. It doesn’t matter whether the Jews were indigenous to the land a long long time ago. It doesn’t matter that Arabs colonised the area before or that it went to the Ottomans. The Anglo Saxons came over to England about the same time. So what?
It doesn’t matter that there are lots of Arab states (they’re not a monolith). It doesn’t matter that there was no official state called Palestine. Statehood is after all just a means to an end.

What matters is that there were people living there, and that those local communities were displaced. Whether they felt Palestinian, Jordanian or whatever, they didn’t deserve to be forcibly expelled.

And nor do the Israelis who were born there now. They don’t deserve to be forced out.

There is no solution. Personally I’d like to see a one state solution. Equal rights for all. Take away the law imposing any religion and allow international right to return for 1948 refugees. Whoever is there now stays. But that’s hopelessly naive.

I don’t believe in God. I don’t believe God promised the land to anyone. If he did then why doesn’t he appear now and tell us all? It’s just about people having a safe place to live and enjoying equal rights.

Have you considered all of the jews that were forcibly removed from the surrounding countries and had no choice but to move to Israel - and would not be safe living in any surrounding country?

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 23:01

TicklishMauveSquid · 08/10/2025 19:03

The response from the pro-Palestinians to Oct 7th made me immediately staunchly pro-Israel. Never had an interest in the region or had a side before seeing that day’s events play out on the news, although having married into a Muslim family, I had been exposed to anti semitic tropes which I used to challenge but didn’t really take seriously.

I had grown up in a small town in southern England as an atheist before moving to London in my early 20s and hadn’t heard stuff like that before and it was long before social media. Have to say DH’s family are pro-Palestinian and have been on marches but he was of the same view as me after Oct 7th.

Shani Louk on the pick up truck with the savages abusing her already dead, defiled body, and Sheri Bibas’s facial expressions as she was surrounded, invoked a primal anger in me I hadn’t felt before tbh.

The more I’ve researched and learned over the over last two years, it’s only reinforced my position.

The Palestinian propaganda machine is unlike anything I have ever seen. How could terrorists who do the following be seen as heroic ‘resistance’ fighters or their actions be seen in anyway justified:

• cut women’s breasts off and shot them while raping them
• ram nails into young women’s vaginas then burn them alive
• take babies/toddlers as prisoners of war
• hack off a man’s head with a garden hoe while someone’s filming them do it and additionally sell another man’s decapitated head (that lad was 19) after storing it in an ice cream freezer
• stab whole families to death in their beds almost decapitating a 4 month old baby in one case
• kidnap, murder and mutilate a group of 3 teenage
boys then attack the ambulance their bodies the transported in
• rip apart the bodies of two men who’d taken a wrong turn and pose for pictures in front of a cheering crowd holding up their hearts and entrails to their mouths for pictures
• blow up restaurants, nightclubs and shopping malls via suicide bomber, hijack planes, shoot up buses, stabbing sprees, etc.
(the former 4 on the list were long before Oct 7th)

Every accusation is a confession is absolutely true in this case.

You could start with looking up the Arabic meaning of the Nakba OP, and why it was actually called that from the Arab perception,

Also the State of Jordan’s inception (which was 73% of the Mandate for Palestine), then the Balfour Declaration and the San Remo Resolution.

Then the Arab - Israel wars and the history of Palestinian terrorism since the Palestine Liberation Army was created in 1964 while Jordan and a Egypt were still illegally occupying the West Bank and Gaza respectively (since 1948) and you can wonder why a Palestinian State was never established during that time.

Then look into the current Palestinian national identity created in 1967 by Yasser Arafat, an Egyptian, who took the star off the Jordanian flag and declared it Palestinian.

Spoiler - the crux of it is that Arabs (who colonised the area themselves prior to it being Ottoman territory for 400 years and called Southern Syria, NOT an Arab State), believe they have a right to ALL the land and they refuse to accept acceeding even a tiny part of it for a Jewish State despite the Jews being indigenous to the land and it being the Jewish ancestral homeland having had a Jewish presence for 3000 years therefore creating all manner of false claims to stake their ownership of ALL the land and also against Israel to present themselves as the victim.

Research what Al Aqsa mosque was built on top of
and even more importantly listen to what the Palestinians say themselves about living in peace with Israel and what Palestinian children are taught in schools funded by international aid.

Ask yourself why Israel is the only country in the world that needs an Iron Dome and has a legal requirement for safe rooms in every home and public areas.

Where has all the billions of $ of aid gone and why Palestinians have a UN agency solely for them and why all Palestinians, no matter where they live or if they are citizens of other countries, are classed as perpetual refugees along with their descendants.

You may or may not reach the conclusion that the ‘Palestinian’ identity as a separate construct from Arab in the region was contrived to delegitimise Israel’s claim to the land and paint themselves as an oppressed people who just have no choice but to commit terrorist attacks against Israel.

Some might say it is the biggest scam in human history and horrifically innocent Palestinians have been brainwashed and suffered for generations, along with Israelis, for a massive anti semitic propaganda program spanning 77 years.

Edited

Your post made me cry. I am new here and have my own story. But the things I have been reading on this terrible forum have devastated me. I believe that either people are weak and brainwashed or worse, they just hate Jews and they try to create a justification or reason. I want to applaud you for this comment, it is the first truth I have read about this conflict and restored my faith that things will be ok for the Jews and we will not be waved away to our deaths by our neighbours like we were in 1936, or in my case in the early 70’s from an Arab country. I wonder when the truth will emerge and hope it is not after Israel’s doom. Thank you.

Beachtastic · 08/10/2025 23:03

the things I have been reading on this terrible forum have devastated me

As a non-Jew, I want you to know that I and many others share your anguish 💗

RealDiscussionNotHate · 08/10/2025 23:05

Beachtastic · 08/10/2025 23:03

the things I have been reading on this terrible forum have devastated me

As a non-Jew, I want you to know that I and many others share your anguish 💗

Me too. I'm very concerned about the treatment of Jewish people and the rise in antisemitism in the UK and other countries.

The soundbites and lack of long term history and knowledge of many is frightening.

Twiglets1 · 08/10/2025 23:06

There are people that support you @Ayoopkid

In a minority on this forum and we get personal attacks just for supporting Israel so that gives us a taste of what it must be like to be Jewish in the UK at the moment.

But we hear what happened on 7/10, we feel it in our bones and we stand with Israel.

Nyungnyung · 08/10/2025 23:08

SameOldHill · 08/10/2025 20:46

Spoiler - the crux of it is that Arabs (who colonised the area themselves prior to it being Ottoman territory for 400 years and called Southern Syria, NOT an Arab State), believe they have a right to ALL the land and they refuse to accept acceeding even a tiny part of it for a Jewish State despite the Jews being indigenous to the land and it being the Jewish ancestral homeland having had a Jewish presence for 3000 years

I don’t understand this argument at all. None of it matters. It doesn’t matter whether the Jews were indigenous to the land a long long time ago. It doesn’t matter that Arabs colonised the area before or that it went to the Ottomans. The Anglo Saxons came over to England about the same time. So what?
It doesn’t matter that there are lots of Arab states (they’re not a monolith). It doesn’t matter that there was no official state called Palestine. Statehood is after all just a means to an end.

What matters is that there were people living there, and that those local communities were displaced. Whether they felt Palestinian, Jordanian or whatever, they didn’t deserve to be forcibly expelled.

And nor do the Israelis who were born there now. They don’t deserve to be forced out.

There is no solution. Personally I’d like to see a one state solution. Equal rights for all. Take away the law imposing any religion and allow international right to return for 1948 refugees. Whoever is there now stays. But that’s hopelessly naive.

I don’t believe in God. I don’t believe God promised the land to anyone. If he did then why doesn’t he appear now and tell us all? It’s just about people having a safe place to live and enjoying equal rights.

Can we also apply this to all of the theocratic authoritarian states surrounding Israel?

Beachtastic · 08/10/2025 23:09

How are you getting on with your "understanding" OP?

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 23:11

Nyungnyung · 08/10/2025 22:57

Have you considered all of the jews that were forcibly removed from the surrounding countries and had no choice but to move to Israel - and would not be safe living in any surrounding country?

This would be me! I am a Yemenite Jew. Once we were thousands, in San’aa, Aden, Sha’arab, but today we are ZERO. We join our Iraqi, Iranian, Moroccan, Algerian, Libyan, Syrian, Egyptian, (insert MENA country of choice) who were forcibly exiled and ethnically cleansed from our countries with nowhere to go. No free hotel rooms and cable TV. No one to protest for us or to offer us refuge. We are the brown skinned Arab Jews you pretend do not exist. You tell us to go back to Poland because you are ignorant and hate Jews. We brown Arab speaking Jews had nowhere to go, so we made our way to where our ancestors once lived, to where our holiest sites were, to our temple walls. The few survivors from Europe found their way too. But of course the world did not like that the Jews were still alive, hence all the BS you read and hear today that rewrites our history and makes us out to be the oppressors. We, the most oppressed. I don’t know how the lies got so out of hand, I can only think that people believe what they want to be true.

newusernamex1000 · 08/10/2025 23:16

Why am I pro Israel?

When I seen the Palestinians celebrating in the streets after 9/11 and the London bombing.

The way they treat gay people too.

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 23:19

newusernamex1000 · 08/10/2025 23:16

Why am I pro Israel?

When I seen the Palestinians celebrating in the streets after 9/11 and the London bombing.

The way they treat gay people too.

Thank you. I’m promise you that you are on the right side of history. I spent 3 days reading this forum, all the comments about Israel and Jews and I promise you that when this is in the past and the truth emerges - 80% of these people will be considered like the Germans are considered before the Holocaust. I tell you one thing these people really get mad about: Jews fighting back and not being willing to get killed anymore.
Thank you.

Franpie · 08/10/2025 23:22

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 22:54

I don’t believe a word of this. Mainly due to the person commuting to a whole other country to work. Where do they commute from in the WB? Which border crossing with Jordan? You are lying to make a point. By the way, in Jordan did you visit a synagogue or meet any Jewish people?

Until a couple of weeks ago there was an easy border crossing between Amman, Jordan and the West Bank via the King Hussein Bridge. A lot of the taxi drivers in Amman actually live in the West Bank. I can only assume that they have now been forced to either leave their families to work or have left their jobs. Clearly you have never been to Jordan.

Why would I lie? Nowhere on this thread have I said whether I am pro Hamas or pro Israel government. I am neither. I am anti-war.

I do not judge the Palestinian people or the Israeli people any more than I would want to be judged as a British person for the Iraq war or the Boer war.

Beachtastic · 08/10/2025 23:23

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 23:19

Thank you. I’m promise you that you are on the right side of history. I spent 3 days reading this forum, all the comments about Israel and Jews and I promise you that when this is in the past and the truth emerges - 80% of these people will be considered like the Germans are considered before the Holocaust. I tell you one thing these people really get mad about: Jews fighting back and not being willing to get killed anymore.
Thank you.

Yes, it is outrageous that they think they are on the right side of history. The right side of social media, more like.

As they say, "Three things cannot be long hidden: the sun, the moon, and the truth."

whatcanthematterbe81 · 08/10/2025 23:27

. I’m Jewish, (by conversion so doesn’t count to everyone). I am so anti genocide but also anti people being taken from their beds and held hostage. Same goes for attacks on synagogues and the like. All Jewish people I know are the same, we know some people like to pretend they think we are pro genocide so they can hate us but most people know that’s not the case for a lot of us.

Franpie · 08/10/2025 23:30

Franpie · 08/10/2025 23:22

Until a couple of weeks ago there was an easy border crossing between Amman, Jordan and the West Bank via the King Hussein Bridge. A lot of the taxi drivers in Amman actually live in the West Bank. I can only assume that they have now been forced to either leave their families to work or have left their jobs. Clearly you have never been to Jordan.

Why would I lie? Nowhere on this thread have I said whether I am pro Hamas or pro Israel government. I am neither. I am anti-war.

I do not judge the Palestinian people or the Israeli people any more than I would want to be judged as a British person for the Iraq war or the Boer war.

Oh and on whether I visited a synagogue, no I didn’t, I honestly can’t tell you whether there are any. As a Christian, I only visited Christian places of worship. I haven’t visited any synagogues in the UK either. I don't really think it’s terribly respectful to treat people’s places of worship as tourist destinations.

I did meet a couple of American Jewish tourists. I don’t think I came across any Jewish people living in Jordan. But why would they live there when Israel is just over the border?

I have travelled through Israel too many years ago and have very fond memories of the country and the people. In fact, I found it quite similar to Jordan which is unsurprising given the rural landscape is the same. If I was Jewish living in that region, I would definitely pick Israel to live in. It would be strange to live in Jordan.

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 23:37

Franpie · 08/10/2025 23:22

Until a couple of weeks ago there was an easy border crossing between Amman, Jordan and the West Bank via the King Hussein Bridge. A lot of the taxi drivers in Amman actually live in the West Bank. I can only assume that they have now been forced to either leave their families to work or have left their jobs. Clearly you have never been to Jordan.

Why would I lie? Nowhere on this thread have I said whether I am pro Hamas or pro Israel government. I am neither. I am anti-war.

I do not judge the Palestinian people or the Israeli people any more than I would want to be judged as a British person for the Iraq war or the Boer war.

This is simply not true!! The Allenby bridge used to be the only way to get to Jordan overland. And it is illegal to be employed in Jordan but living in another country. How do they pay taxes? Or is this a city like Ramallah where the Arabs do not allow Jews inside but live off their tax money? Make it make sense please.

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 23:40

Franpie · 08/10/2025 23:30

Oh and on whether I visited a synagogue, no I didn’t, I honestly can’t tell you whether there are any. As a Christian, I only visited Christian places of worship. I haven’t visited any synagogues in the UK either. I don't really think it’s terribly respectful to treat people’s places of worship as tourist destinations.

I did meet a couple of American Jewish tourists. I don’t think I came across any Jewish people living in Jordan. But why would they live there when Israel is just over the border?

I have travelled through Israel too many years ago and have very fond memories of the country and the people. In fact, I found it quite similar to Jordan which is unsurprising given the rural landscape is the same. If I was Jewish living in that region, I would definitely pick Israel to live in. It would be strange to live in Jordan.

Edited

Well why would they indeed. I suppose why would there be Muslims in Israel if they have Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt just next door. Never mind that (oops) there are no Jewish citizens of Jordan. Such strange comments you are making. Maybe you’re one of these people who think they know more than the people who live there right? You have friends here you have friends there but you yourself, no clue.

Franpie · 08/10/2025 23:42

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 23:37

This is simply not true!! The Allenby bridge used to be the only way to get to Jordan overland. And it is illegal to be employed in Jordan but living in another country. How do they pay taxes? Or is this a city like Ramallah where the Arabs do not allow Jews inside but live off their tax money? Make it make sense please.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9wd74r0qdvo.amp

I can’t comment on taxi drivers tax situation! I assume like a lot of Londoncabbies, they fiddle or don’t pay their taxes 🤷‍♀️

A sign for the Allenby crossing next to a motorway.

Palestinians in West Bank stranded as Israel shuts only international crossing - BBC News

Many have been unable to leave the territory since the Allenby Bridge crossing was shut indefinitely on Wednesday.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9wd74r0qdvo.amp

Franpie · 08/10/2025 23:47

Ayoopkid · 08/10/2025 23:37

This is simply not true!! The Allenby bridge used to be the only way to get to Jordan overland. And it is illegal to be employed in Jordan but living in another country. How do they pay taxes? Or is this a city like Ramallah where the Arabs do not allow Jews inside but live off their tax money? Make it make sense please.

Israel call it the Allenby Bridge, in Jordan it’s called the King Hussein Bridge.

Franpie · 09/10/2025 00:43

Beachtastic · 08/10/2025 21:47

I wish we did. It was interesting to read what you said about the cost of getting out. I have struggled with understanding with why anyone would choose to remain somewhere like that, with Hamas in charge.

Edited

All borders in Gaza have been closed to people and goods since 2007, when Hamas took over.

The Palestinians are trapped. They are not choosing to stay because they support Hamas. There is no choice.

As I said, you used to be able to pay smugglers a small fortune to hopefully get you out on the Egyptian side, but no more. Hence the outrage and calls that this is genocide. Because no one can leave. So their only options are to die of famine or bombs.

Ayoopkid · 09/10/2025 01:05

Franpie · 09/10/2025 00:43

All borders in Gaza have been closed to people and goods since 2007, when Hamas took over.

The Palestinians are trapped. They are not choosing to stay because they support Hamas. There is no choice.

As I said, you used to be able to pay smugglers a small fortune to hopefully get you out on the Egyptian side, but no more. Hence the outrage and calls that this is genocide. Because no one can leave. So their only options are to die of famine or bombs.

Before they decided to break through the border and slaughter innocent Israelis, they used to go to work in droves to Israel. Egypt has a big border with them but us kit willing to take the risk. It is their own fault they are in this situation. I’m very sorry for them and my heart hurts for their children- but they made their decisions however everyone tries to frame it or justify it.

confusedlady10 · 09/10/2025 01:23

EasyTouch · 08/10/2025 12:54

" Randomly out of nowhere" is the domestic abuser's " she made me do it" means of justification and lack of accountability.
But to further the point, why are Palestinians afforded the luxury of using history as justification for violence, but Israel not?
And why is this dependence upon bits and bobs of history ad justification for Palestinian violence and violence in her name then ignored and contemporary Gazan suffering inserted into debate when the Israeli position is being seen to be far more nuanced than " diablo!" , using citational history?

And why is terminology that is specific to Jewish suffering then inverted and used for Palestinians in a way that I have never seen in a debate pertaining to two opposing factions not involving Israel/Jews ( just getting ahead of the " language and meaning evolves !" deflection as explanation)?

If I had the time, I could bullet point the static mode of reasoning coming from the majority of "Pro Palestinian" posters online, including on CITME.
It does not suggest knowledge, depth, comprehension and suggests hyper emotionalism is a substitute for good character, as opposed to a sign of probable non optimum mental health.
And indeed it is , without contextual content , the enemy of debate.
In which case, why so scared of debate and even a soupcon of linear thought pertaining to this crisis?
Apparently now, the " genocide" has been going on since 2023.
Either the Pro Palestinians ( including the UN) do not know what a genocide is or there is a deliberate push to minimise Israeli suffering in order to justify its hopeful future annihilation in the eyes of the anti Semite UN and Pro Palestinians factions.
Maybe that is why the" Peace" Marchers only hold Israel as responsible for peace in a duo factional conflict?

I just don't enjoy people cherry picking history painting the Israeli government as protecting their land as victims of a war that started on Oct 7 as justification for genocide. What happened on Oct 7 was atrocious. What the Israeli government have been doing to Palestinians for years is way worse, especially considering the casualties with no acknowledgement because "clearly" again the war started on Oct 7...

Beachtastic · 09/10/2025 06:26

Ayoopkid · 09/10/2025 01:05

Before they decided to break through the border and slaughter innocent Israelis, they used to go to work in droves to Israel. Egypt has a big border with them but us kit willing to take the risk. It is their own fault they are in this situation. I’m very sorry for them and my heart hurts for their children- but they made their decisions however everyone tries to frame it or justify it.

Hmm, I feel a right wanker for not fully grasping the "open prison" thing. Having seen the ferocity and sadism of 7/10, though, I do completely understand the need for those blockades by Egypt and Israel. Maybe everyone with any sense got out as soon as (or before) Hamas took over, leaving only fanatics?