Pro-Israel - I don't understand

[plsexplaintome]

I've NCed for this as MN can be a vicious place lately, this thread may be a bad idea but hoping some genuine people will respond with their perspective.

Obviously there's a lot of nuance, but I don't understand how so many people seem to be pro Israel? My family are Jewish (I'm not as my mother isn't, but my dad's side are) and none of us support what Israel are doing. They say that as Jewish people, they don't want to see their people commit a genocide and push people out of their homes as this is exactly what's been done to Jewish people throughout history. And we don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to be against the actions of a government. (Though clearly some people are being antisemitic under the guise of defending Palestine)

Of course, Hamas has done awful things and I don't mean to say it's okay. But it seems like Palestine is fighting back after decades of oppression and violence committed against them by Israel. It's the actions of a desperate people - it's awful violence, but if it weren't for Israel, there would be no need for violence at all. You can't continually kick a dog and complain when it bites back?

I'm not looking for an argument so may not post again here as I don't want to argue withother opinions - I'm just hoping to hear from other perspectives. A lot of the media and public seem very pro Israel and I just don't understand. I'm not talking about protests here in the UK, as that's a whole other mess that's really muddying the waters and I'm not sure Palestinians would want these people speaking for them. If you are pro-Israel, please explain why as I feel I'm missing something here

I wonder if some people actually believe this!

Its impossible to think anyone believes this. So it must be deliberate misinformation.

Oh FFS. Many Israelis are not "white" (as if that matters!)

The response from the pro-Palestinians to Oct 7th made me immediately staunchly pro-Israel. Never had an interest in the region or had a side before seeing that day’s events play out on the news, although having married into a Muslim family, I had been exposed to anti semitic tropes which I used to challenge but didn’t really take seriously.

I had grown up in a small town in southern England as an atheist before moving to London in my early 20s and hadn’t heard stuff like that before and it was long before social media. Have to say DH’s family are pro-Palestinian and have been on marches but he was of the same view as me after Oct 7th.

Shani Louk on the pick up truck with the savages abusing her already dead, defiled body, and Sheri Bibas’s facial expressions as she was surrounded, invoked a primal anger in me I hadn’t felt before tbh.

The more I’ve researched and learned over the over last two years, it’s only reinforced my position.

The Palestinian propaganda machine is unlike anything I have ever seen. How could terrorists who do the following be seen as heroic ‘resistance’ fighters or their actions be seen in anyway justified:

• cut women’s breasts off and shot them while raping them
• ram nails into young women’s vaginas then burn them alive
• take babies/toddlers as prisoners of war
• hack off a man’s head with a garden hoe while someone’s filming them do it and additionally sell another man’s decapitated head (that lad was 19) after storing it in an ice cream freezer
• stab whole families to death in their beds almost decapitating a 4 month old baby in one case
• kidnap, murder and mutilate a group of 3 teenage
boys then attack the ambulance their bodies the transported in
• rip apart the bodies of two men who’d taken a wrong turn and pose for pictures in front of a cheering crowd holding up their hearts and entrails to their mouths for pictures
• blow up restaurants, nightclubs and shopping malls via suicide bomber, hijack planes, shoot up buses, stabbing sprees, etc.
(the former 4 on the list were long before Oct 7th)

Every accusation is a confession is absolutely true in this case.

You could start with looking up the Arabic meaning of the Nakba OP, and why it was actually called that from the Arab perception,

Also the State of Jordan’s inception (which was 73% of the Mandate for Palestine), then the Balfour Declaration and the San Remo Resolution.

Then the Arab - Israel wars and the history of Palestinian terrorism since the Palestine Liberation Army was created in 1964 while Jordan and a Egypt were still illegally occupying the West Bank and Gaza respectively (since 1948) and you can wonder why a Palestinian State was never established during that time.

Then look into the current Palestinian national identity created in 1967 by Yasser Arafat, an Egyptian, who took the star off the Jordanian flag and declared it Palestinian.

Spoiler - the crux of it is that Arabs (who colonised the area themselves prior to it being Ottoman territory for 400 years and called Southern Syria, NOT an Arab State), believe they have a right to ALL the land and they refuse to accept acceeding even a tiny part of it for a Jewish State despite the Jews being indigenous to the land and it being the Jewish ancestral homeland having had a Jewish presence for 3000 years therefore creating all manner of false claims to stake their ownership of ALL the land and also against Israel to present themselves as the victim.

Research what Al Aqsa mosque was built on top of
and even more importantly listen to what the Palestinians say themselves about living in peace with Israel and what Palestinian children are taught in schools funded by international aid.

Ask yourself why Israel is the only country in the world that needs an Iron Dome and has a legal requirement for safe rooms in every home and public areas.

Where has all the billions of $ of aid gone and why Palestinians have a UN agency solely for them and why all Palestinians, no matter where they live or if they are citizens of other countries, are classed as perpetual refugees along with their descendants.

You may or may not reach the conclusion that the ‘Palestinian’ identity as a separate construct from Arab in the region was contrived to delegitimise Israel’s claim to the land and paint themselves as an oppressed people who just have no choice but to commit terrorist attacks against Israel.

Some might say it is the biggest scam in human history and horrifically innocent Palestinians have been brainwashed and suffered for generations, along with Israelis, for a massive anti semitic propaganda program spanning 77 years.

I understand the history of the conflict.

I understand the depth of feeling on both sides pre and post 7 October 2023 having visited Israel, the West Bank and Jordan and met and spoken to many Israelis, Palestinians, Jews and Muslims over the years.

But here’s what I don’t understand…..

If we are to believe Netanyahu and this current assault on Gaza is just to eradicate Hamas, then why can that not be done without the total destruction of the Gaza Strip and its people?

I fail to believe that with today’s highly sophisticated intelligence services (and Israel is world leading in that department) and all the US military might that Israel has access to, that they couldn’t overthrow Hamas much more covertly.

I think you’re mentioning several very good points.
I’ve been wondering, during the period between 1948 and 1969, have there ever been any attempts to separate a Palestinian identity from, let’s say, Jordanian?

How would you suggest they should have done this?

Exactly - in fact, they've done tremendously well to minimise civilian deaths - especially given Hamas embeds themselves in populated areas to use them as shields.

I guess me question is, what do you think Israel should have done? Just let Hamas murder and rape and kidnap and do nothing in response? Where does that end?

Do you just think all Jews should vacate the area? Do you think that that will be a net 'good' for the world? Having had a homeland of their own for less than 100 years, and even continuously under attack during that time, I can't imagine I'd want to give that up.

Because I don't. I wouldn't want to be a woman in the area in any country other than Israel. I wouldn't want to be gay, or any Christian either. Israel has to be tough, they are surrounded by people who want them gone, in a world that has done nothing but abuse them for 100s of years.

Yes.

"Of course, Hamas has done awful things and I don't mean to say it's okay. But it seems like Palestine is fighting back after decades of oppression and violence committed against them by Israel" 🙄

I've seen posters say that Israel should have somehow used their intelligence networks to pinpoint key players and bring them to justice, or carefully eliminate them in some mysterious way that poses no danger to anyone attempting to do so in a society where the killing of a Jew/Israeli (preferably in as sadistic a way as possible) = instant social status and financial reward.

The pager explosions could not have been more cleverly targeted, but even that meets with a frown on MN because bystanders could have been hurt.

I can't help feeling that some people apply the principles of social workers/education welfare officers to a brutal Middle Eastern culture they do not understand. There seems to be little acknowledgement that terrorists are not the easiest of people to locate or deal with, especially when the whole network is spread like mycelium.

It does feel a bit that way. How are you getting on OP with your appraisal of the situation?

I have absolutely no idea, I’m not a military strategist nor secret agent!

But to put my thoughts into context…. this current situation (the atrocities of 7/10 and the IDF response) is not too dissimilar to 9/11 and the Afghanistan war. Al-Qaeda attacked the US on home soil, a dramatic response was required given the horrific nature of the attack. In that case though the US, supported by the UK, did everything they could to limit civilian casualties. During the conflict in Afghanistan over an 11 year period 46k civilians lost their lives. Osama Bin Laden was located and executed by special ops.

This current conflict in Gaza has already claimed over 64k civilian lives and injured over 160k more in just 2 years.

No effort is being made to protect civilians whatsoever. Which is why I don’t believe this is just about removing Hamas.

And time will tell. Unfortunately I believe that this will only stop once Israel has Gaza. If Netanyahu then moves onto occupying more of the West Bank then we will all see that this was never just about Hamas.

I wouldn't want to be a woman in the area in any country other than Israel. I wouldn't want to be gay, or any Christian either.

Have you actually been to any countries “in the area”? As female Christian, I have visited many and worked in a couple and have always felt safe and respected.

ETA: I also don’t why pro-Israel supporters jump to the assumption that anyone who opposes the destruction of Gaza wants the eradication of Israel as a country. I haven’t seen or heard anyone suggest that Israel should just disappear.

About 3% of Gazan's pre-war population has been killed since 7/10/23. That's a lot of people, but to me it does not suggest that "no effort is being made to protect civilians whatsoever" ... quite the contrary, in the circumstances (Hamas being invisible, indistinguishable from "innocent civilians", hiding in a vast infrastucture of underground tunnels, siting their key operations under hospitals and schools, etc)...? I mean, over 2 years, if Israel had not paid any attention to strategic conflict, surely the death count would have been much higher?

It is being done without the total destruction of the Gazan people.
As for the infrastructure; less buildings above ground, less places above ground for Hamas to turn into their version of " trap houses" , using the occupants or workers in those buildings as shields.
The notion that ruining the infrastructure of the enemy in a war being some action unique to Israel from Pro Palestinians has me wondering if they actually lie to themselves and believe the lies, or if a very large faction of them are educationally " touched".

In which case I apologise for any forthrightness as I like to debate with those of a full shilling disposition , because anything else would be like kicking a three legged poodle.

And to get ahead of the other disingenuous proposition.
One side not being as equipped as the other does not invalidate a war being a war. Neither does the losing side being less equipped invalidate a war being a war. In fact, only a few sides that lose a war manage to do so by ending up better equipped than the victors, even if they started off that way.
It is not Israel's fault that Hamas spent not a red cent on bunker for infrastructure for the citizens under its rule in preparation for a war that took two years of planning.
That's where hating one's enemy more than loving one's own people will getcha.

Israel cannot be made to love Palestinians more than Hamas and too many fellow Palestinians do, or even as much.
And most certainly not to the point of putting their people in the same position as Hamas has Gazans in order to fulfill some type of grotesque " parity" to the satisfaction of anti Zionists.
Hamas had twenty years to do far more with and for Gaza than it did and with the world of money pumped into Gaza from all over creation.

But when God and holy book comes before people, the tolerance for sub standardism IS the standard where piety reigns.

I've been to Egypt, Turkey, Oman and UAE (although only as a visitor). I've lived in 2 muslim countries in SE Asia.

I felt safe in the very controlled circumstances I was in, when visiting, but also felt many eyes on me wherever I went - and often not in a way that I was comfortable with. I had a couple of experiences where men leapt to anger very quickly when I mis-understood something (in a shop and in an airport)

In SE asia I generally felt very safe, but I wouldn't have flaunted my religion, and I was careful in my clothing choices day to day. I wasn't free as I would be in Israel.

Edit to add - and that's the men that spoke to me. There were others that I just didn't exist to.

I'm under no illusion that my experience would be anything like that of a Palestinian woman though.

I haven’t seen or heard anyone suggest that Israel should just disappear.

Then you don't understand Hamas.

I’ve seen some interviews with military experts discussing this.
There seem to be various reasons - urban warfare in a densely populated area, Hamas not wearing uniforms and blending in with the civilians, Hamas hiding in the extensive tunnel networks (while denying shelter to civilians) and using civilian infrastructure, Hamas boobytrapping buildings (apparently, this accounts for high levels of destruction in Rafah, for instance).

I meant on this thread (and other threads).

The marches and social media of the protests in my city are absolutely based on the premise that Israel should and will cease to exist.

OK, I understand... I think maybe this comes from repeated emphasis (here on MN) on the idea that Israel should bend over backwards to accommodate the demands of a population that has made no secret of wanting Israel eliminated, and made that mind-blowingly clear on 7/10/23. It comes across as "Yes, put yourselves in danger, do whatever it takes to preserve and protect the people that want you dead and gone." It doesn't seem particularly balanced or fair.

I went to an early Palestine march in London and didn’t see anything like that. It was very peaceful in fact.

Unfortunately marches tend to bring out the nutters who just want any reason to fight with anyone which is why I no longer go to these things.

I wonder what chants you heard at the march you went to?

This. People are deluding themselves if they think they aren't participating in the delegitmising of Israel.

"Yes, put yourselves in danger, do whatever it takes to preserve and protect the people that want you dead and gone."

On a different thread someone suggested the other day that the IDF should have arrested Hamas fighters and sent out some special task teams to retrieve the hostages.
Not sure how exactly they imagined all that would be implemented.