Pro-Israel - I don't understand

[plsexplaintome]

I've NCed for this as MN can be a vicious place lately, this thread may be a bad idea but hoping some genuine people will respond with their perspective.

Obviously there's a lot of nuance, but I don't understand how so many people seem to be pro Israel? My family are Jewish (I'm not as my mother isn't, but my dad's side are) and none of us support what Israel are doing. They say that as Jewish people, they don't want to see their people commit a genocide and push people out of their homes as this is exactly what's been done to Jewish people throughout history. And we don't think it's necessarily antisemitic to be against the actions of a government. (Though clearly some people are being antisemitic under the guise of defending Palestine)

Of course, Hamas has done awful things and I don't mean to say it's okay. But it seems like Palestine is fighting back after decades of oppression and violence committed against them by Israel. It's the actions of a desperate people - it's awful violence, but if it weren't for Israel, there would be no need for violence at all. You can't continually kick a dog and complain when it bites back?

I'm not looking for an argument so may not post again here as I don't want to argue withother opinions - I'm just hoping to hear from other perspectives. A lot of the media and public seem very pro Israel and I just don't understand. I'm not talking about protests here in the UK, as that's a whole other mess that's really muddying the waters and I'm not sure Palestinians would want these people speaking for them. If you are pro-Israel, please explain why as I feel I'm missing something here

Sorry that post got cut off somehow.

The Ottoman Census of 1878 shows the Jewish population as being only 5% of the whole at that point. Please see screen shot.
This is from ‘Demographics of Historic Palestine Prior to 1948’.
www.cjpme.org/fs_007

Emigration of Jews to Palestine began to increase under the British Mandate in the 1920s and 1930s after WW1.

" Randomly out of nowhere" is the domestic abuser's " she made me do it" means of justification and lack of accountability.
But to further the point, why are Palestinians afforded the luxury of using history as justification for violence, but Israel not?
And why is this dependence upon bits and bobs of history ad justification for Palestinian violence and violence in her name then ignored and contemporary Gazan suffering inserted into debate when the Israeli position is being seen to be far more nuanced than " diablo!" , using citational history?

And why is terminology that is specific to Jewish suffering then inverted and used for Palestinians in a way that I have never seen in a debate pertaining to two opposing factions not involving Israel/Jews ( just getting ahead of the " language and meaning evolves !" deflection as explanation)?

If I had the time, I could bullet point the static mode of reasoning coming from the majority of "Pro Palestinian" posters online, including on CITME.
It does not suggest knowledge, depth, comprehension and suggests hyper emotionalism is a substitute for good character, as opposed to a sign of probable non optimum mental health.
And indeed it is , without contextual content , the enemy of debate.
In which case, why so scared of debate and even a soupcon of linear thought pertaining to this crisis?
Apparently now, the " genocide" has been going on since 2023.
Either the Pro Palestinians ( including the UN) do not know what a genocide is or there is a deliberate push to minimise Israeli suffering in order to justify its hopeful future annihilation in the eyes of the anti Semite UN and Pro Palestinians factions.
Maybe that is why the" Peace" Marchers only hold Israel as responsible for peace in a duo factional conflict?

I suppose that depends whether you count Israel being bombarded by missiles from Gaza for years, and the cross-border terrorist attacks they've had to deal with.

Why do you think Israel built the Iron Dome?

The reason it took a while for people to recognise the dangers at Nova Festival is that no one batted an eyelid at rocket attacks. Perfectly normal for Israelis. Imagine that at Glastonbury.

Also imagine how things would look different if Hamas had also built an Iron Dome, instead of investing everything into tunnels from which to destroy Israel and carefully siting its strategic centres under hospitals and schools. Or better still, if they had invested all that wealth into improving life for Gazans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

I'm like you OP. Find it unbelievable that there even is such a thing as being pro-Israel. And I've been aware of their dreadful treatment of the Palestinians for decades. My views haven't changed since Oct 7 2023. I also won't get into arguments on Mumsnet about it, but just wanted to say I completely understand your pov.

The poster was talking about Jewish people in the Middle East generally, not just the area that is now Israel.

Her point of view is about learning more and going behind the headlines and the soundbites.
She's asked for reading recommendations and other source materials.

Well said.
I really don’t get it, do people like the pp you’ve responded to really just think there have never been any attacks on Israel from the Palestinian side before October 7th?
That for decades Israel was just merrily attacking completely innocent and defenceless people?

Just curious, do you really think that for decades it was only ever Israel attacking the Palestinians, never the other way round?

And that person presumably has no understanding of why Jews travelled to Israel in 1948 and why so many contine to move there since? Extraordinary to think its ok to say such a thing.

I can save you all a lot of time.

Pro- pals say:

• Yes Palestinians attack Israel, but they are driven to do it because they are oppressed.

Pro-Israel people say:

• Yes Israelis do control Palestinians and Palestinian territory, but it’s because if they don’t Palestinians (and their backers in Iran etc) will attack them.

I’m not exaggerating when I say that this is one of the most stupid and ignorant things I’ve ever read online. You consider Palestine a state? In what way? The whole conflict is based on the fact that they don’t have a state and they are occupied by Israel. And the reason it’s been declared a genocide but every major human rights organisation is because Israel is killing civilians and not soldiers because Gaza is not a nation state and doesn’t have a military like a nation state would have. If you want to be this ignorant about the basic facts of a conflict in which thousands of people are dying then don’t bother commenting at all. Really bizarre comment.

Er no, pro-Pals actually rarely acknowlege that Pals attack Israel.
And no Israel did not control Gaza. Israel withdrew from Gaza 20 years ago, dismantling settlements there (& some in the West Bank) & forcing Israelis to leave. Hamas won elections and chose to build an incredible tunnel system to facilitate smuggling of weapons and military systems & personnel, and of course their regular attacks on Israel.

No, I am fairly well versed on the subject and have taken a special interest since about 2005. I would suggest, over the decades, the conflict has its roots in Israel expanding their declared territory by force and without any care or concern for their neighbours.

Actually, although it is de rigeur to scoff at Wikipedia, the Wiki page on the Israel-Palestine conflict is quite good for some quick background reading.

Israel is killing civilians and not soldiers because Gaza is not a nation state and doesn’t have a military like a nation state would have

So when Israel is killing Hamas fighters they’re killing civilians, in your opinion?
Speaking of bizarre comments…

Ok, I'll bite.

Some brief points.

This is not a war between Israel and Palestine. This is a war of a conglomeration of a range of ME partners, Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah and Houthis who intend to destroy Israel. People who portray it as Israel vs Gaza ( yet erase Hamas's actions from the narrative) do this to make Israel look like the bad guy. Even before the first year of the conflict, over 27000 rockets were fired from these Hamas and Hezbollah into Israel. God knows how many it is now.

Israel left Gaza in 2005, using its army to forcibly remove Jews who lived there - that was the Gazans chance to build up a successful state. They did not. They used aid money and money from Iran to build 450 miles of tunnels and to prepare for the October 7th attacks.

The terrorist attacks were deliberately brutal and barbaric to provoke a war.

Having provoked a war, Hamas has refused to protect its citizens in the tunnels as Ukraine is doing in its tube stations and as UK did in the blitz. It is manipulating a situation to cause high citizen deaths and then using that in its propaganda campaign.

Israel has done more to protect Gazan life than Hamas - it has provided food, polio vaccinations, warned citizens of bomb attacks ( which would have been more useful if Hamas used this to protect citizens in tunnels), and provided safe passages of return in the first ceasefire. Hamas has not shown such concern for its own citizens.

Israel is one of the few democratic countries in the ME. It has full human rights including for gay people and women, and freedom of religion and the right to protest the government. Gazans do not have this. Do you know that Israel has provided asylum to gay Palestinians?

In the 1940s arab states expelled 800,000 jews. If the families of those expelled Jews launched bloody attacks on citizens of those countries, would you see that as justified too? If not, why not? Do you think those 800,000 Jews have the right to return? If not, why not? Why do you think it is ok for Gazans to act like this to Israeli Jews, but not its not okay for Israeli Jews to behave like this to Arabs who have treated them like this?

Israel exists. Anti-Zionism is genocidal anti-Semitism as it is calling for the genuine genocide of a Jewish state., and all its citizens, that already exists.

Thank you for "biting" 🤩 I wish we had more posts like yours!

I actually find reading some of these posts so difficult. I cannot believe how ignorant people are, plus how they honestly think Israel brought the October 7th attack upon itself. What a disgusting, abhorrent thing to say. As another poster said, educate yourself about the constant attacks Israel has endured from its savage neighbours - whose goal it is to destroy Israel and Jews. Stop believing the propaganda of terrorists. I get so so angry when I read these. I take comfort from some of the sensible posters. I feel so so sad for Jewish people and those in Israel who must face this constant attack.

Same here. It is horrible to see the meteoric rise of antisemitism in the UK since 7/10, as Hamas's DARVO propaganda has taken root. Like the demos yesterday, of all days.

Yes but there are also reasons behind that including constant security threats, terror attacks and stated desire to destroy Israel.
I don't 'support' a lot of what Israel is doing but it's in a context of an ongoing conflict with plenty of blame on the Palestinian side too, it's just that they're not as effective in what they want to achieve.

I second that!

No, we accept that there's been violence on both sides. But they have been in a different scale. Neither are right.

On the Israeli casualty side are occasional deaths from crude rockets largely from recycled Israeli bombs, and acts of terrorism. Wrong but with the exception of 7/10, generally small scale. Accounted for about 10% of deaths.

On the Palestinian side, it's Israeli drone attacks, bombs dropped by fighter jets, assassinations, people shot by the IDF and people killed by settler extremists. Wrong and more large scale with modern lethal weapons. Accounted for about 90% of deaths.

This is excluding the current war which brings the ratio to 2% Vs 98%.

And you've been here long enough that you know your claim about Israel not controlling Gaza is rubbish. You couldn't leave without Israeli approval. What you ate was controlled by Israel as ever single thing was checked by Israel.. Even pasta was banned at one point in case it was dangerous. Kids not allowed paper to draw. Chocolate banned. Israel didn't even show Gazans to fish without interference.

People that don't understand need to watch many different history videos/read lots of history books on the subject. Needs to cover all the way back to 'biblical times'. If not then absolutely from the Ottoman times.

And you've been here long enough that you know your claim about Israel not controlling Gaza is rubbish. You couldn't leave without Israeli approval. What you ate was controlled by Israel as ever single thing was checked by Israel.. Even pasta was banned at one point in case it was dangerous. Kids not allowed paper to draw. Chocolate banned. Israel didn't even show Gazans to fish without interference

You do realise that Israel is not the only border neighbour with Gaza?

And the Gazan government taking the opportunity of Israel leaving Gaza to develop itself as a peaceful, productive state so that more trust grew between Israel and Gaza would have been the more constructive approach to take. If that had happened both countries and their citizens would be in a much better position. But for that to have happened, Hamas would have wanted a peaceful state in Gaza. And they did not. They are fundamentalist religious extremists who are partnered with other fundamentalist religious extremists who want the complete destruction of Jews in the ME.

The problem with the narrative of people like you, is that you think, because it suits your narrative, of Palestinians as weak characters with no agency, who only react to Israel but have not active thoughts of their own and make no choices.

The reality is that Hamas have a very clear system of thought and are acting with free choice and full agency to achieve their religious-political Islamist view of the world.

I support the existence of Israel as it’s their homeland and also have worked hard to have democracy and give people rights and also therefore support their right to defend themselves when attacked. That’s it basically. I also support the Palestinian voice to ask for land and equity but not via a terrorist and anti semitic agency like Hamas.

Children not allowed paper to draw? Don't be silly. No paper in Gaza for 20 years? You can't actually believe that.

You may acknowledge violence on both sides but many do not.

One of the themes of the last few days has been the line that 7 October marks '2 years of the Israeli genocide'. No mention of the 7 October attack on statement after statement, and even the most avid perpetrator of the genocide can't believe it started on 7 October.

I understand why you wish to minimise Israeli deaths. Those 'acts of terrorism' are not abstract. They are innocebt civilians stabbed in the street, or bombed on vehicles. The likelihood of terrorism such as this is precisely why Israelis have to live with extraordinarily high levels of security. 'Terrorism' is about how a society is impacted by the level of threat. Its not just measured by body bags. It is why the travel and various aspects of Palestinian life are controlled. Without those high levels of security and surveillance many many more Israelis would die every year.
Without the iron dome many many more Israelis would die because of rocket attacks.
It is Hamas's choice to put nothing in place to protect its citizens. Its Hams's choice to perpetrate a campsign of terror.