So are MSF wrong about Gaza too?

[OneKookyShark]

I have read multiple posts both on here and on the CITME forum- and I am aware how toxic the debate is.

But surely when Legitimate and highly respected international NGO talks of ‘orchestrated killing and dehuminisation”, then it starts to become utterly undeniable?

I am sure someone will be along to tell me otherwise. I also note that Netenyahu has ordered a full occupation of Gaza city today.

“Médecins Sans Frontières calls for immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
The medical NGO Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has called for the immediate closure of Gaza Humanitarian Foundation (GHF), the US- and Israeli-backed aid organisation operating in Gaza, describing GHF-run food distribution sites in Gaza as having become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”.
In a social media post on Thursday, MSF wrote:
“In MSF’s nearly 54 years of operations, rarely have we seen such levels of systematic violence against unarmed civilians.”
The GHF-run food distributions in Gaza, Palestine, have become sites of “orchestrated killing and dehumanisation”, not humanitarian aid.
In a new report, MSF analysed medical data, patients’ testimonies and first-hand medical witnesses at two MSF clinics in Gaza and found that it “point[ed] to both targeted and indiscriminate violence by Israeli forces and private American contractors against starved Palestinians” at food distribution sites run by the GHF”

Theoretically yes.

But the reality is that Israel have kept Palestine occupied and funded Hamas, thwarted the chance of any peace deal. Now is establishing 22 new settlements in the West Bank and government ministers are boasting about how it is 'burying' the idea of a Palestinian state. Its obvious that Israel is a actively destroying any hope for a Palestinian state.
What does the future hold - does Israel expect that it can destroy Gaza and annex the West Bank and the world will just shrug its shoulders and move on?

Before 1900, the relationship between the Jewish population in what is now known as Palestine and the local Arab population, who would later be called Palestinians, was complex. It's not accurate to characterize the entire period as one of continuous hatred and persecution. Instead, the situation was defined by the sociopolitical structures of the time, punctuated by periods of both coexistence and tension.
Here is a breakdown of the key factors:
The Ottoman Millet System

• From the 16th century until World War I, the region was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottomans governed non-Muslims through the "millet" system, which granted religious communities, including Jews and Christians, a degree of administrative autonomy.
• Under this system, Jewish communities were allowed to practice their religion, govern their internal affairs, and were led by their own spiritual leaders. This structure generally fostered a climate of coexistence.
• However, it's important to note that non-Muslims were considered "dhimmi," a protected but subordinate status. They were subject to certain restrictions, such as paying a special tax (the jizya), and some limitations on their dress, housing, and other aspects of public life. While this was a form of discrimination, it wasn't typically a system of violent persecution.

Periods of Tension and Violence While there was often a degree of coexistence, there were also specific instances of violence and persecution that occurred:

• 1834 Hebron Pogrom: During the peasant revolt against Egyptian rule, a mob attacked the Jewish quarter in Hebron, leading to a massacre and the looting of Jewish homes.
• 1838 Safed Pogrom: In Safed, a similar event occurred during the same peasant revolt, in which a mob attacked the Jewish community.
• The Rise of Zionism in the Late 19th Century: A significant shift in relations began in the late 19th century with the start of the First Aliyah, the first wave of large-scale Jewish immigration to Palestine driven by Zionist ideals. This new wave of immigrants sought to establish a Jewish national home and began purchasing land.
• This new dynamic created economic and social friction with the local Arab population. Land disputes and competition for resources contributed to a rise in tensions. The local Arab population grew increasingly alarmed by the rapid influx of Jewish Europeans and the stated goal of establishing a separate Jewish state.

In summary, the relationship was not uniformly one of hatred and persecution before 1900. Under the Ottoman Empire, the Jewish community had a protected, though subordinate, status and generally coexisted with their Arab neighbors. However, this coexistence was fragile and occasionally broken by outbursts of violence. The late 19th century marked a crucial turning point, as the arrival of Zionist immigrants and their political goals introduced a new element of conflict that would fundamentally alter the relationship between the two communities in the 20th century.

Follow the money of the NGO’s, income can be a very distorting factor within one’s ability to think critically. Companies rarely turn off their own income stream. I think this area of the conflict needs to be looked at.

Please elaborate as it’s quite hard to discuss without specifics! Who is in ‘control’ of MSF, for example?

Perhaps you can now take the time to analyse the copy and pasted information - that means putting an objective hat on and not dismissing centuries of persecution, that leads the region to where it is, today.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/oxfams-gaza-propaganda/

Meanwhile you should look at what Gaza was like before most of it was flattened. Hospitals and universities, stadiums, mosques not to mention millions of homes. More than just a land of tunnels and weapons, I’m afraid.

Non sequitur.

“Good job Israel is somewhat independent - they developed their infrastructure, while their enemy didn't- just dug tunnels and bought weapons. Their rich benefactor, of course knew where most of their money was going.” @Dangermoo

Just spotted this in your back and forth and worried you didn’t appreciate what Gaza actually looked like before the war and the fact that it wasn’t just a bunch of terrorists running around in tunnels.

Thanks - I’ll take a look at this.

Your post still bore no relation to mine.

https://theconversation.com/gaza-we-analysed-a-year-of-satellite-images-to-map-the-scale-of-agricultural-destruction-248796

Satellite imagery shows that over two-thirds of Gaza’s cropland and almost 70% of greenhouses have been destroyed (and this was back in February).

This isn’t isolated ‘collateral damage’ - it’s widespread destruction of civilian infrastructure and food sources, which undermines the claim that blanket bombing is just targeting Hamas hiding in civilian buildings.

A field of crops

Funny when I literally quoted you. But it’s fine. Tells me all I need to know (again)!

It tells me what I need to know - you replied with something irrelevant to my post. The usual regurgitation, never targeting a specific post.

Again, I literally quoted you. That’s as specific as I can get. But it’s fine if you want to pretend otherwise.

Let’s focus on @Wedonttalkaboutboris post about the systematic destruction of Gaza’s agriculture. I’d like to add that they did the same to the education system and power and water systems. It’ll take decades to rebuild Gaza.

The centuries of persecution Jewish people have faced is unacceptable. The decades of oppression the Palestinians have faced is unacceptable. Both are sadly ongoing. The actions of Hamas are unacceptable. The actions of the Israeli government are unacceptable. Both need to go/change.

The oppression the Palestinians have faced doesn’t make Hamas’s actions acceptable. The actions of Hamas do make the Israeli government’s actions acceptable.

Let's not. Once again, my original point and your response was with regards to the history of the ME. You then went looking for an unrelated previous post, of mine. Also, is that poster telling me something new? I doubt it.

If you’re going to tell someone to look at the history of the ME with “an objective hat”, I only think it’s right that you show a decent level of awareness too. Your post re Gaza suggested you didn’t. The post wasn’t unrelated, it was part of that chain, hence why I saw it. But deflect away.

Talking of deflection, I will show a "decent level of awareness" on the relevant post.

All of your posts are relevant to you. You wrote them.

I can only conclude you don't know what non sequitur means. Fair enough - we can't know everything.

And I can only conclude you think it’s means “I don’t want to talk about something I wrote that was untrue”.

And you’re right, we can’t know everything. So we’re back to the original comment I made which is I recommend you look at all the infrastructure that Gaza had before the conflict escalated massively on 7/10, why they struggled to keep it up and running, and what now remains of that infrastructure because of wide spread bombing. Reducing Gaza to just tunnels and terrorists is totally unfair on the innocent Palestinians who live there.

Oxfam exposed itself badly in Haiti. Organisations, (and religions), are only as 'good' as their people, especially their leadership.

Of course 'good' is a subjective value but certainly in Haiti the sexual abuse of disaster victims was very 'not good.' Haiti is still a very troubled place.

The Haiti sexual exploitation is indeed a stain on oxfam. I don’t think it’s fair to use this scandal to delegitimise what Oxfam have said about Gaza today though.

It seems to be a tactic generally of the Israeli government and their supporters? Rather than discuss the facts that are being put forward, they just smear the organisations and people talking about the humanitarian disaster in Gaza.

170 NGOs have called for the end of the GHF for example. Why not discuss this rather than bringing up a scandal? If you support the starvation of a population and the indiscriminate killing of a population, why not just own it?

The GHF are incredibly skilled at delivering their humanitarian aid to Gazans, many UK military analysts have witnessed their successful aims.

This has cut off Hamas steeling the aid and using this to pay their militants.
As I have said before, aside from the moral arguments about this horrific war, there is much money to be made in conflict, billions in fact and it is questionable as to whether NGO’s in the region really help or hinder the progress towards peace why would you not want a well co-ordinated agency who is succesful in their aims of delivering aid to carry on? Its sadly not a difficult one to get your head around.