How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

[BaMamma]

Following a poster's comment about her views on Israel/Palestine changing after October 7th, I wonder if other posters' views have changed or if they've been constant since first learning of this issue?

For my part I've always been left leaning and tended to accept the narrative around in the 80s and 90s about how terrible Israel was and awfully they treated the Palestinians, I recall the phrase 'the prisoners have become the prison guards' being bandied about quite a bit. I'll admit I didn't think about it too deeply, even though I had visited Israel as a kid and loved it.
I was at a friend of a friend's house when the Ramallah incident was playing out on the TV screens, he had 24-hour news on and that's all it seemed to be showing. I was appalled at the violence, but he was chuckling, supporting the barbarians tearing those men apart, raising bloodied hands to the crowds.
So, I started reading and kept on reading and thinking and came to an understanding of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East and the only home for Jews in the world, surrounded by Muslim neighbors. I began to see the conflict in world history terms rather than just Palestine vs Israel and saw the necessity of a Jewish state.

I spent a few weeks in both Israel and the West Bank a few years ago with a Christian Palestinian as a guide. We spent time with Zionist Jews and anti-Zionist Jews. We spent time with Palestinians from all walks of faith. It was eye-opening. I've also spent over a decade working for a charity that, historically, built hospitals and schools in Gaza and Israel and still tries to serve as neutral peacemakers. In all honestly the situation is so complex that I still don't really understand it and it's so tied to history that no-one seems to want to heal from and move on from. I have sympathy for both sides and I equally condemn the actions of both sides. None of us were surprised by what happened though, it had been building up for a while.

The British have a lot to answer for as well though due to the Balfour Declaration.

The whole thing just makes me sad. The fact that so many people can see others as subhuman makes me sad.

As others have said my thoughts about the situation are all over the place too.

What happened on 7th October was barbaric but the response has been over the top.

Watching a nation of people fleeing up and down Gaza to find a safe haven has been horrific to watch. Penning people in like animals, giving them no way out is evil.

Using human hostages as shields and bargaining tools makes me weep for their families.

The whole current situation is hard to watch. Trump needs to shut his mouth and the Palestinian people need to be given the chance to vote for who they want to govern their country.

I don't know what the answers are but if I were Jewish or Palestinian I would be long gone. I put my family and loved ones above land. I'd be leaving as fast as I could.

@JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn

"Trump needs to shut his mouth and the Palestinian people need to be given the chance to vote for who they want to govern their country.

I don't know what the answers are but if I were Jewish or Palestinian I would be long gone. I put my family and loved ones above land. I'd be leaving as fast as I could."

I really can't see Hamas giving up power and allowing few and fair elections in Gaza and quite frankly who is going to be able to force them to do this?

I agree that if I were an Israeli or Palestinian then I would also want to leave. But if you are Israeli then you would find strong anti semetic sentiments in Western Europe.

And as for the Palestinians then there are many on the pro Palestinian lobby in the West that want to prevent Gazan Palestinians voluntarily seeking asylum abroad because they feel this is encouraging ethnic cleansing of Gaza even though it's voluntary.

Trump never said it was voluntary, he said the US would "own" Gaza

This has been explained to you. It's not voluntary. I don't know why you keep making this completely false point about pro Palestinians not wanting them to leave. Very tiresome.

@Lalaloveya

"This has been explained to you. It's not voluntary. I don't know why you keep making this completely false point about pro Palestinians not wanting them to leave. Very tiresome."

Ah I'm glad you responded.

So let's get this clear- are you suggesting that there are absolutely no Palestinians in Gaza that want to leave and that they are all happy to stay?

Or that there are some Palestinians who wish to leave Gaza of their own free will and seek a safer more stable future elsewhere?

If it is the former then I don't believe you. And if it is the latter then what is the issue with this provided that there is a host country willing to take them in?

Finally I agree that no Palestinian should be forced to leave Gaza as that would be ethnic cleansing but I can't see why you wish to object to Palestinians that voluntarily wish to leave Gaza.

And are you suggesting that absolutely every single Palestinian will up and leave their home? How many of them do you honestly think will leave? What do you suggest happens to those who don't want to leave? Stand back and let Trump and Netanyahu force them out? Or maybe become American citizens when Trump takes over Gaza? None of this is acceptable and won't work on any level

@Lalaloveya

"And are you suggesting that absolutely every single Palestinian will up and leave their home? "
No some will choose to leave and some will choose to stay - it is entirely up to each individual/ family. But I would at least give them the choice.

"How many of them do you honestly think will leave?"
I have no idea- but in their position I would opt to leave

What do you suggest happens to those who don't want to leave?
That they don't leave and continue to live in Gaza and reconstruct as best they can.

Stand back and let Trump and Netanyahu force them out?
Trump is not serious about taking over Gaza - it's simply a negotiating gambit. And why would he want to spend billions of dollars to create some Vegas on the Med in an unstable dangerous part of the world? Netanyahu does want it either for the same reasons. Even Egypt that used to own Gaza willingly gave up their territory because it was so unstable and problematic. Honestly the best thing every country should do is stay well away from Gaza as it only causes trouble.

"Or maybe become American citizens when Trump takes over Gaza? "
Given Trump's current immigration policies I can't see the US welcoming thousands of Palestinian refugees.

"None of this is acceptable and won't work on any level"

This is the interesting part. If large numbers of Palestinians voluntarily leave Gaza then I agree it does weaken the negotiating position of Hamas.

So your objection to Palestinians leaving Gaza voluntarily, like Hamas, is driven by political considerations rather than any genuine concern for the civilians. And like Hamas you feel it is acceptable to use innocent civilians as political leverage / human shields by keeping them in Gaza against their will rather than let them leave.

@PotaytoPotahhto wrote
The right to defend is not what it’s doing in Gaza though. Its actions are completely disproportionate. It has gone beyond defending itself and has sought to destroy Gaza’s infrastructure and economy with no regard for human life. Hamas is a terror organisation, expecting them to have respect for human life is ambitious. Israel is a democracy that wants legitimacy in its actions - its treatment of Palestinians has been abhorrent.
Yes, two sides need to work to a solution but all Israel has managed to achieve is ensure that there is a future generation of Israel haters amongst Palestinians. The onus is on Israel to do better. The onus is on Israel to stop killing innocents in the most vile way. When you read stories of the IDF shooting toddlers in the head and running over families with their tanks, it’s really hard to see their actions as self defence or necessary. Save from Iran, which is essentially run by a group of mad religious man that no other country in the Middle East gives any legitimacy to, Israel is not surrounded by enemies seeking its destruction. If it was, then Israel’s attack on Gaza would have given them the perfect excuse to retaliate and attack Israel. That it didn’t happen shows that Israel is established and the surrounding Muslim counties aren’t seeking to destroy it.

Perfectly expressed, I could have written that myself, but it would have had far more typos.

Thank you @PotaytoPotahhto

IF that's the word though isn't it, if large numbers leave Gaza voluntarily, which I think deep down you know is not going to happen, sure some of them might leave voluntarily if they're given the option, but Trump hasn't given them that option he said he will own Gaza, which means they'll be forced out, why would you bring Hamas into this, this is about ordinary innocent Palestinians and what is best for them

If I had the chance to leave I would too. but so many Palestinians don't want to. I'm saying this as someone who knows of Palestinians in both Gaza and the occupied territories. It's hard to explain but they actually love the land, It is a part of them. I love England, it is my country but what i feel is nothing like what i have heard them express about their love for Palestine. Many in Gaza say that they have survived the unimaginable, not just to up and go now.

It's not voluntary when the reason they might want to leave is because Israel has destroyed Gaza almost entirely.

I don't understand what's so hard to comprehend here.

I do fear that Gaza is actually unliveable. Ironically Trumps “selling point” of his US plan. The pollution from the destruction, including decaying bodies in the rubble, destroyed solar panels which are very toxic then apparently, the unexploded munitions, the apparent use of white phosphorus which continues to affect the land for growing food and the air and eco system. Most of the fishing boats were bombed, livestock are gone and the pollution would impact any new ones. The sewage system has been destroyed. There is no longer a waste management system.

So yes I think Palestinians should be able to leave voluntarily for sure. They should have been always able to flee war but even if they walk out now - and they likely won’t all go - it’s not voluntary. It seems all the sources of the basics of life have been systematically destroyed.

Nobody is even talking about the dissolution of Israel. It’s not on the cards at all. The question around “The position” on this crisis is what happens to Palestinians now?

@Fifiworks the question at the top of the thread is "How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?" If you want to ask "what happens to Palestinians now?" you are welcome to start your own thread.

I don't think you've actually explained your position, beyond that you're 'against ethnic cleansing', or how you got there. How about you try that and ask your own question elsewhere?

I have no idea what is so inflammatory about my post that I get this response.

i was answering previous posts in good faith with my personal opinion

It's not that it's inflammatory, it's that it's off topic.

If you're looking for answers to your question, ask it somewhere else, that's all.

Well I came to my own position by my education I suppose, I have a masters in Social Justice which I don’t actually use in my job. I’m interested in politics and have been involved in various campaigns, I take an interest in many conflict situations /human rights abuses around the world. I take action where I can. I am involved with volunteer work that gives me the privilege to touch paths with many different types of people including asylum seekers, but also drug addicts for example, people on the margins of society. I’ve have learnt a lot from this, much more than from any formal education for sure nothing like real life experience.

So generally an interest in human rights, world politics and a belief in our shared humanity.

Most of the time I am doing my job and minding my kids but I think the above got me to where I am.

@Lalaloveya

"It's not voluntary when the reason they might want to leave is because Israel has destroyed Gaza almost entirely."

This has to be one of the most ridiculous and twisted logics I have seen on MN.

By this bizarre logic no refugee anywhere in the world has chosen to leave their country they have all been forced to by circumstances and therefore giving them refuge simply rewards their oppressor by allowing them to leave.

So the Afghan refugees are not leaving voluntarily they are leaving because of the destruction of Afghanistan and an oppressive Taliban Government. So they shouldn't be able to seek refuge in another country because this would reward the Taliban.

So the Ukrainian refugees are not leaving voluntarily they are leaving because of the war started by Russia. So they shouldn't be able to seek refuge in another country because this would enable the ethnic cleansing of Ukraine.

To argue that refugees shouldn't leave their countries because it would reward their oppressors is using innocent civilians as a political tool in the same way that Hamas uses the suffering of innocent Palestinians for their own political goals.

I would like to see the Palestinians choose what happens next to Gaza in a free and fair poll. The problem is that Hamas is embedded in everyday life and they kills their opposition - so how do you manage that sort of poll?

There's also the small matter that a lot of Gazas may choose to keep Hamas in charge. We don't know if it's the majority, but the Oct 7th celebrations were real, as were the people assisting Hamas with the hostages. I can't see Isreal permitting construction trucks, materials and everything else for in if its just going to be used to rebuild the tunnels and finance Hamas again. No sane country supports the enrichment of its enemies.

This has to be one of the most ridiculous and twisted logics I have seen on MN

Of course it is not ridiculous.

What is ridiculous and sinister is to invade and bomb a country till there is nothing left of it, and tens of thousands of its people are dead, maimed or orphaned, with thousands more under the rubble, then to loftily announce- as you calmly look down on the ruins from a plane- that it looks like a ‘demolition site’ and that you will be taking it over and building a new US/Israeli Riviera there - and that the people you have been bombing will be permanently removed from their own land on your say so.

Throughout history refugees have left and still leave war torn countries for places of safety and to rebuild their lives. Most recently Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Ukraine etc.

I'm talking about Gaza. That's the situation there. This has been the plan from day 1. Lots of useful idiots unfortunately are going along with it.

Exactly and to say such refugees shouldn't leave their countries to seek refuge and safety because it would reward the aggressors or oppressors is simply cruel and not caring about innocent civilians.

I feel like I'm living in 1984 with all the outrageous double speak around here. Madness.

@Lalaloveya

I'm talking about Gaza. That's the situation there. "
So refugees from Gaza are different and should be treated differently to other refugees fleeing conflicts and not allowed to voluntarily leave?

"This has been the plan from day 1. Lots of useful idiots unfortunately are going along with it."

The plan maybe as you see it as a land grab opportunity or you may see the destruction wrought on Gaza as a result of Israel retaliating against Hamas in a population dense urban area.

But either way the reality is that a lot of Gaza is in rubble and some civilians would freely wish to leave in order to seek safety in another country. To prevent them from doing so because it would reward the "US / Israeli master plan" is not caring about innocent civilians and using their lives for political purposes in the same way that Hamas has done.