How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

[BaMamma]

Following a poster's comment about her views on Israel/Palestine changing after October 7th, I wonder if other posters' views have changed or if they've been constant since first learning of this issue?

For my part I've always been left leaning and tended to accept the narrative around in the 80s and 90s about how terrible Israel was and awfully they treated the Palestinians, I recall the phrase 'the prisoners have become the prison guards' being bandied about quite a bit. I'll admit I didn't think about it too deeply, even though I had visited Israel as a kid and loved it.
I was at a friend of a friend's house when the Ramallah incident was playing out on the TV screens, he had 24-hour news on and that's all it seemed to be showing. I was appalled at the violence, but he was chuckling, supporting the barbarians tearing those men apart, raising bloodied hands to the crowds.
So, I started reading and kept on reading and thinking and came to an understanding of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East and the only home for Jews in the world, surrounded by Muslim neighbors. I began to see the conflict in world history terms rather than just Palestine vs Israel and saw the necessity of a Jewish state.

I do realise Judaism predates Islam. I mean, how thick do you think I am ?
(on a scale of 1 to 10)

I'm simply saying that by the 1800s most of the Jews has girded their loins and naffed off out of the holy land to other middle eastern countries and parts of Europe.
In the holy land, by 1870, they comprised just 1 in every 25 people.
Were they just there to hold the fort ?

'Were they just there to hold the fort' is a weird comment; they were there because it was their home.

They were there because it was their home, and probably had been for scores of generations. But these Palestinian Jews were relatively few.... until....

Until...? Until what...? What are you trying to say?

Sorry, I should have said, "The number of Jews was relatively few ... until. ..."

And the "until" is the start of the influx of the first Aliyah. After that demographics changed radically. Read up about the Arab riots in the mid 1930s.

You mean you didn't mean to admit that everyone living in the area was a Palestinian? That there were Palestinian Jews?

Meanwhile, elsewhere I've been criticized for calling Palestinian's Arabs, which I was taken aback by, so it's good to know that they are in fact Arabs. Thanks for that.

I just saw there is a thread on site stuff about the laugh emoji being used to mock or bully people. You can report the post with a note about the emoji, apparently, and it will be treated as a personal attack. They won't delete your post, but I suppose if someone keeps doing it they may be prevented from posting. Hope that's helpful. It's obviously a problem across the site, and not just here.

I haven’t RTFT.

My current position is one of great sadness and anger at the whole situation. Conflict and blood shed. Children being killed and witnessing horrors. Families torn apart. Humans suffering. Hatred and prejudice. I am angry and appalled that this is going to go on and on because there really doesn’t seem to be a way the whole region can live in peace, find safety and security in their homes and experience life free from fear.

@BaMamma
3 Jews in Jerusalem, 1895. Which of them looks like they might have come from Eastern Europe and which two look like their families could have lived there for centuries?
It's a great pic.

What on earth do you expect to prove with a single photograph?

It’s very clear what @mouthpipette is trying to say so the faux naivety is pointless.

She’s trying to point out that before the 20th century, Palestine was not a Jewish homeland and it only became one in the early 20th century when large numbers of Jews started to move there. She’s trying to quell the points made that there has always been a large Jewish population in what is now Israel and that the lands have always been in dispute.

Phew, I'm glad someone got it. Thanks.

Don't worry, I got it too. 😀

You characterise centuries of persecution in their own homeland as 'naffing off'. Why do you completely misrepresent whst happened,? Of course the numbers were relatively small. The Ottoman empire even restricted the numbers allowed to be there. And why, through the whole period do you think Jewish people kept coming back? Why do you think before the 19th century it was often Sephardim not Ashkenazim going back though some Ashkenazi communities also moved before the 19th century. Zionism predates the 1870s because Israel is central to Judaism, in its prayers and practices, the orientation of the synagogue and unbroken, though fractured presence.

This is completely wrong to the point of deliberate misrepresentation with the purpose of denying the right of the Jewish people to self determination.

I start with the viewpoint of someone who values democracy and abhors militant Islamism.
Accepting Israel needs to fight relentlessly to exist. Knowing that the Jews are the most persecuted group in history. Knowing that the Islamists want them gone from the area. Those are just inescapable facts.

My viewpoint on Gaza comes from those positions. That the Israelis have to fight or die.

Are you saying all the Palestinians are terrorists then?

You got it and you thought it was ok?

All these facts so often ignored.

As above, where we are told that the Jews forced out of the area were simply 'naffing off'.

I hope this will be screened in my area too

Well no, Stating historical facts isn’t denying the Jewish people the right to self determination in any shape or form. Regardless of how many Jews originally lived in Palestine before large numbers started to move there, Israel is now established and will continue to exist as a Jewish state. Saying otherwise is like claiming America should no longer exist and should return to the Native Americans. It has no merit as an argument.

We are way past any argument that questions Israel’s self determination. But the key point is that Israel is now the dominant power, and it is therefore on Israel to work towards the two state solution, not against it.

But they werent historical facts and the connection of the Jews to the land was never about numbers because so many were thrown out. I certainly hope that Israel will continue but it will only be so if Israel is allowed to defend itself and its right to exist is accepted. The creation of 2 states is not only the responsibility of Israel. It is at least just as much the responsibility of those whose stated intention is to destroy Israel.

@potaytopotahhto
We are way past any argument that questions Israel’s self determination

But we're obviously not.

On thread after thread, there are comments about 'Palestinian land'. By which posters mean Palestinian Arab land.

There's a deliberate muddying there, whether they mean a state which should be governed by an Arab government, or whether only Arabs are permitted to own land in the area, and even if it was bought by Jews it still inherently 'belongs' to Arabs. Can you imagine saying that about land owned by immigrants in the UK?

And yes, I know some if it was forcibly taken. But the overwhelming majority of the land was bought, or else was a community resource whose control went to the government. Exactly as control of community land went to Arab governments in the areas they controlled.

Hamas specifically say they want to continue to commit terrorist atrocities until they eradicate all Jews in the area. 30% of Gazan civilians support Hamas.

A majority of Palestinians think Israel shouldn't exist.

Staggeringly, even in the West a poll last year found that 54% of young people don't think Israel should exist.

And Jewish people fully understand what that means.

So yes, it needs to keep being said that Jewish people have the right to self determination in Israel.

And yes, Israel needs to keep fighting for it's survival every single day. If you don't realise that, you are incredibly naive.

The right to defend is not what it’s doing in Gaza though. Its actions are completely disproportionate. It has gone beyond defending itself and has sought to destroy Gaza’s infrastructure and economy with no regard for human life. Hamas is a terror organisation, expecting them to have respect for human life is ambitious. Israel is a democracy that wants legitimacy in its actions - its treatment of Palestinians has been abhorrent.

Yes, two sides need to work to a solution but all Israel has managed to achieve is ensure that there is a future generation of Israel haters amongst Palestinians. The onus is on Israel to do better. The onus is on Israel to stop killing innocents in the most vile way. When you read stories of the IDF shooting toddlers in the head and running over families with their tanks, it’s really hard to see their actions as self defence or necessary. Save from Iran, which is essentially run by a group of mad religious man that no other country in the Middle East gives any legitimacy to, Israel is not surrounded by enemies seeking its destruction. If it was, then Israel’s attack on Gaza would have given them the perfect excuse to retaliate and attack Israel. That it didn’t happen shows that Israel is established and the surrounding Muslim counties aren’t seeking to destroy it.