How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

[BaMamma]

Following a poster's comment about her views on Israel/Palestine changing after October 7th, I wonder if other posters' views have changed or if they've been constant since first learning of this issue?

For my part I've always been left leaning and tended to accept the narrative around in the 80s and 90s about how terrible Israel was and awfully they treated the Palestinians, I recall the phrase 'the prisoners have become the prison guards' being bandied about quite a bit. I'll admit I didn't think about it too deeply, even though I had visited Israel as a kid and loved it.
I was at a friend of a friend's house when the Ramallah incident was playing out on the TV screens, he had 24-hour news on and that's all it seemed to be showing. I was appalled at the violence, but he was chuckling, supporting the barbarians tearing those men apart, raising bloodied hands to the crowds.
So, I started reading and kept on reading and thinking and came to an understanding of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East and the only home for Jews in the world, surrounded by Muslim neighbors. I began to see the conflict in world history terms rather than just Palestine vs Israel and saw the necessity of a Jewish state.

My position, for the hard of reading, is that "I came to an understanding of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East and the only home for Jews in the world, surrounded by Muslim neighbors. I began to see the conflict in world history terms rather than just Palestine vs Israel and saw the necessity of a Jewish state."

I'm not asking what most people believe, do you not have your own position?

I'm beginning to think you don't really know what you think. Prove me wrong?

Alright. Well honestly this tells me nothing about your position on the current crisis.

i already explained mine further up thread.

I suppose I'm saying that I see why it is so important that Israel exists. I have also seen a lot of people say that it shouldn't. Obviously this isn't a mainstream position in western governments but I know many individuals who think this. Often not in the sense that all the Jews should disappear but in the sense that there should be a single state in which Jews are a minority. And when I say I believed in peace I meant I had a naive wish that everyone could just get along. I didn't understand the complexities of why this is so difficult.

So, I guess you must be pretty mad about how the Jews were cleansed from all the Arab countries then?

My position is that I am pro-Israel, a Zionist, and support the existence of the Jewish state, I don't particularly support the actions of its current administration, but I strongly repudiate the actions of Hamas and blame Hamas for the current situation. Clear enough?

I'm very much of the left. Being pro-Palestine is part of the furniture. I have read Finkelstein and Chomsky and boycotted Israel and imbibed the Israel-as-coloniser for years. But Im also very well travelled and was becoming increasingly resistant to the deep racism of the western left in patronising and infantilising people they see as oppressed. Then I started to notice how fanatical people on the left were about this issue at the expense of ALL others and the scales started to fall from my eyes really. The absolute obsession, the rage while not really caring about any other part of the world, or any other injustice. What was it that made them so obsessed about Israel?Syria was quite a turning point. And then working with refugees and particularly meeting some Iranian refugees who were so insightful about the idiocy of the left in pandering to Islamism. Then the sickening antisemitism of the Corbyn era, so I left the Labour Party having been a member my whole life and started to read more and talk more to Jewish friends and just be more engaged. Despite being quite clued up by this point, 7 October, and the reaction (or lack of it) from my supposedly left wing, progressive, non-racist, feminist networks was devastating. What has been life enhancing in the face of this horror has been making some really wonderful new friends and connections, Jewish and non-Jewish over the last 18 months as I learnt more about Israel, its importance in Judaism and the need to support it.

Kind of except it seems that we are both in agreement with each other. And I strongly suspect we are not.

Yes, your totally right, it is terrible that Jewish people were expelled from Muslim countries. I don’t think people should be forced to migrate based on their race or ethnic group.

I grew up in a very nationalist family in Ireland which obviously has always had sympathy with Palestine. The Wolfe Tones would have been the soundtrack to my childhood.
On graduation I became a member of the teachers trade union the INTO which has a committee in solidarity with Palestinians and would organize marches and demonstrations.

I backpacked a lot throughout my twenties and met lots of nationalities including Israeli people and was very interested to hear about their national service and other aspects of their culture that I didn't know about as I don't know any Jewish people personally mainly because of where I live (rural) and the fact that most of my friends are teachers I met through the Catholic Teacher Training college I went too.

Now working as a teacher in the staff room and chatting with friends it is an assumption that sympathies would lie with Palestine. But would also believe like myself that Israel has a right to exist and that Hamas are evil.

I will always believe that Israel has gone too far over the past 18 months and that Donald Trump should not be allowed near the situation because he will only make it much much worse for Palestinians and Israelis.

I'm not Jewish but have always been a passionate supporter of Israel. I think this comes from reading numerous books about the Holocaust and earlier pogroms.

On the other side, I loathe the way Islamic culture treats women and homosexuals and anyone not Muslim.

October 7th's atrocities have only cemented my views.

BUT I do not support Netanyahu, and it is heartbreaking to see the damage wrought by Hamas using civilians as human shields.

My family spent time in Israel and became very pro-Palestinian.

I have worked in sectors that have links to Palestine and have some Palestinian connections through that.

Some interesting answers, glad I asked.

Experience of the area (multiple places across the region).
Experience of conflict and disaster zones.
Background of a family and friends with military experience and service, including in Eastern Europe and the ME.
An interest and additional studies in international politics.
Reports from people I know and trust about their experiences, both prior to and during the current conflicts.
The murders of multiple people I care about in the area over past decades.
Experience of people mocking, dismissing and celebrating those murders.
Discovering what happened to the bodies of the people murdered.
Knowing many people I care about are injured, missing, hungry or dead as a result of this situation.
Hearing the screams of friends and colleagues.
Explaining to a small child, that their injuries won't grow back.
Being aware of the probable individual and population level effects and outcomes of what has happened and what is happening.
Knowing what some people and organisations would happily do to me, my husband and my DC in the context of this.

Etc, etc.

That’s very moving, could you share your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

Why must there ALWAYS be posters derailing

It's exhausting

This.

Having a marcher shove a leaflet in my face and shout free Palestine. On a previous occasion I mentioned the hostages and was told that resistance is justified. That sick statement changed my mood completely. Innocent festival goers and families on a kibbutz did not deserve it and rape is not resistance.

I was horrified watching the cheering of 'Innocent Palestinian people ' on and after October 7th It reminded me of the celebrations after 9/11. Sick.

I then looked into the history of the area. The Ottoman empire before the British. Why the Jews previously left, why they left other middle east countries, the lack of any speaking out against Islamic groups that kill other Muslims, the entire hatred of Jewish people. It was clear the main motivation was anti semitism.

The fact that Islamic people dominate most of the middle east yet Christian and Jewish people in the region have been persecuted. Iran funding numerous terrorist organisations in the region.

Lots of reasons and I feel that the nation of Israel must not be wiped out.

Have always supported Israel's right to exist and was vocal about how they carved out a modern, vibrant country slap bang in the middle of countries that wanted them
To cease to exist. That's always been there

Palestine was never really on the radar. I have no affinity with Palestinians nor any common values, I don't think

October 7th cemented that view, mainly due to the reactions from people here

The "marches", the celebration of the rape
And murder of innocent Israelis and the virtue signalling check scarfs on Tamara from Morningside. The ripping down of hostage posters

The obsession by some people who don't seem to have anything else to do other than trawl twitter to self
Importantly post on here anything- true or not - that says "Israel bad"

The bandying about of terms like "genocide" "open air prison"

The complete lack of empathy shown towards the hostages. The lack of agency assumed of the Palestinians, the presumed innocence of every Palestinian.

The incomprehensible moderating of posts on here. The whataboutism.

there's probably more but all of the above has firmed up my view

Yep. All that energy to hate Jewish people and ignoring the plight of other situations, with many more deaths.

It feels like an obsession against Israel and keeping Gazans as victims for over 80 years, always needing aid and never need to consider a better way.

Or maybe they just want their own state. Like everyone else has.

I'm Jewish. I never thought about it too much, didn't have an especially close relationship to Israel. Always objected to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel after I became aware of it. I don't believe and have never believed is the 'only safe place for Jews'. And I'm not complacent about this, my maternal grandfather's family were almost completely wiped out by the Nazis.

My 'position' is that I'm honestly not sure what the answer is. Israel is there so arguments about whether it should exist or not are kind of moot to my mind. And having been there I would say that to disestablish it somehow would be an act of vandalism; it is an incredible achievement in many ways and so dynamic and cultured. Albeit I wonder how much of what they've been able to build is because they have a cheap labour force in the form of Palestinians.

But, I am faced more and more with the feeling that every day of its existence is a disaster for the Palestinian people and I don't know how to square that. It's destruction would be a disaster for the Jewish people instead.

A part of me feels we need to accept Israel has done its job of preserving us after the Shoah, and move on to a more Jew-ish state where Jews and Palestinians can both live. I certainly reject the view from some on the Left that 'Oh, Israeli Jews are all just white European colonisers oppressing brown people, they can go back to Europe' For start c40% of Jews in Israel are middle Eastern and don't have safe counties to go to.

I was agreeing with a friend that we are perhaps 'Post-Zionists'

Look this thread asked for our own views on how we came to our current view. Why do you have the arrogance to feel your opinion matters more than anyone else's. How about you stop with the assumption that your view is more important. You could just scroll by rather than try to derail.

I'm not going to answer your particular comment since you are derailing yet another thread. That silly incorrect comment has been addressed many times on other threads already. Maybe go.look at the answers on those threads.

So you can give your opinion one someone's post but no one can challenge you, even if what you say is in my opinion, false. Yet I'm the arrogant one. Got it 👍

Wouldn't it be lovely if on each thread the question was answered. There are so many threads. I scroll past ones I've no interest in. I answer the thread questions I'm interested in. Simples.

"Yep. All that energy to hate Jewish people and ignoring the plight of other situations, with many more deaths.

It feels like an obsession against Israel and keeping Gazans as victims for over 80 years, always needing aid and never need to consider a better way."

Do you really think that this was you answering the question?

I think it's not 'just antisemitism' that makes people focus on Israel. Sometimes it is, but we have to bear in mind that unlike Russia or China Israel is our political ally. Our leaders have a responsibility to talk to them and get Netanyahu to reign in his bloody vengeance- before it ultimately destroys Israel as well.

Good grief. I am allowed to follow up what someone said with my comment agreeing with them.

I will decline to exchange with you since I believe your aim is to constantly derail. I wont assist you with that at all. Good day.