How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

[BaMamma]

Following a poster's comment about her views on Israel/Palestine changing after October 7th, I wonder if other posters' views have changed or if they've been constant since first learning of this issue?

For my part I've always been left leaning and tended to accept the narrative around in the 80s and 90s about how terrible Israel was and awfully they treated the Palestinians, I recall the phrase 'the prisoners have become the prison guards' being bandied about quite a bit. I'll admit I didn't think about it too deeply, even though I had visited Israel as a kid and loved it.
I was at a friend of a friend's house when the Ramallah incident was playing out on the TV screens, he had 24-hour news on and that's all it seemed to be showing. I was appalled at the violence, but he was chuckling, supporting the barbarians tearing those men apart, raising bloodied hands to the crowds.
So, I started reading and kept on reading and thinking and came to an understanding of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East and the only home for Jews in the world, surrounded by Muslim neighbors. I began to see the conflict in world history terms rather than just Palestine vs Israel and saw the necessity of a Jewish state.

The rest of the world does have their own eyes and media

Indeed they do. And despite the atrocious attack committed by Hamas, the wholesale slaughter of entire communities, women, children in their tens of thousands, medical staff, press and aid workers is has been the response. Completely unhinged and with no respect for international law. Horrendous actions from a supposedly civilised democracy.

The actions of the settlers in the WB too.
Disgusting.

And now Trump is ready with the bulldozer egged on by Netanyahu. This is the worst humanity has displayed in a long time.
This doesn’t seem to be a particularly balanced thread imo, so it's best I'll leave it at that, those are some of my thoughts as to how I’ve reached my conclusion on the horrific crisis in the ME. I hope I am allowed my voice into this discussion as I don’t believe any of the statements I’ve just made breach talk guidelines.

I’m not anti Israel, I don’t object to a Jewish homeland, but I object to settler policy and to the segregation and apartheid nature of Israel since its formation. I don’t support Hamas but I can see how Palestinians have ended up with Hamas. If one side of the conflict has a strong standing army which is denied to the other that results in terrorism, that isn’t new.

I find the idea of the landmass of Israel/Palestine as the historic homeland so therefore must be in modern times not entirely convincing. Mobility and migration have always been part of life and new communities, states, empires are born of that. As a rather agnostic believer, I find it difficult to reconcile that a biblical homeland can have credence, especially amongst those I know to be atheist or agnostic because in that case much of the bible is myth and legend - aware there are historical characters and events written about after the event.

Russia was founded on the concept of the Rus situated in Kyiv. All things being equal Russia is therefore somewhat more justified in their invasion of Ukraine - but it’s 2025 and no longer the Russian Rus and just as heavy in myth, legend, storytelling with some historical basis.

I came to my position through my academic study of history and my position is that I am pro-Palestine in a situation where we have unequal resource to engage in fair terms of engagement that in my opinion from my reading have resulted in Hamas. I also came to this position when a relative of mine lived there for many years as an English woman married to a Palestinian man and the letters she sent to us outlining the difficulties and constant griefs that they went through.

Whilst given the history of the Jewish diaspora, I do not object to Israel or a place where a homeland could flourish I don’t believe it inevitably had to be Israel, or on the terms that it did become so and there is no other country in the world where a religion has a State (Saudi notwithstanding since that is an artificial construct). Since my own research has been about seemingly ‘white’ minorities I have read a lot about race/ethnicity and religion and there are some compelling arguments around Jews being a race, but maybe that’s another thread.

This has turned out extremely long, but in essence creating an unequal state and removing agency from one party is not something I support. I would like to see a truly equal, two state solution but I fear wounds and trauma run too deep for that, especially with the world leaders we have.

@AgualusasLover great post

I would like to see a truly equal, two state solution

Yes I agree as would most of the world. That is the true path to peace, and it should be without either Netanyahu and his government, or Hamas in power.

It’s a travesty that this cannot be enabled. But the levers of power are clearly on one side only, and sadly this won’t be achieved.

I have just watched this BBC documentary about the setting up of the state of Israel in 2008.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00b91vj

It taught me a lot. There was a Zionist movement to Palestine starting in the 19th century to join the Jews who lived in Palestine. After the end of the Second World War and the desperation of Jews for a homeland, the UN ordered Palestine be divided into a two state country for Jews and Arabs.
During the Second World War Mohammed Amin al-Husseini (Arabic: محمد أمين الحسيني; c. 1897 – 4 July 1974) was a Palestinian Arab nationalist and Muslim leader in Mandatory Palestine. He spent the war in Italy and Germany as a Nazi sympathiser
After the state of Israel was established by the UN, five Arab nations invaded with armies to attack the new country. Israeli troops managed to hang on to the new state of Israel.
There has been conflict ever since.

I think that’s what we refer to as the ‘great’ man theory of history - disparagingly. Inverted commas to denote he obviously wasn’t great. But I’m not sure a man and his followers actions is a suitable explanation for the ensuing violence to be honest. There is rarely only ever one cause in historical events.

But this thread is about what led you to your conclusions, so I respect that this was it.

Yes great post @AgualusasLover

What did it teach you @Dianapiano ? I think most people here are aware of the history of the creation of Israel already.

Do you think we are going to watch it and oh you are totally right all the Palestinians should be killed/moved/left to suffer based on this history?

i can only see two types of people on this thread people who say that both Palestinians and Israelis deserve safety and dignity and people who think that the safety of Israelis justifies harming Palestinians even those who are completely innocent.

Are you sure that most people are aware of the history of the creation of Israel already? Many seem to think the history of Israel begins in 1948.

I’m assuming that they do. But what real difference does it make? Do you think people should use history to justify ongoing harm??

The documentary was presented by Jeremy Bowen who knows so much about the conflict.
The premise of the thread is 'how did you get to your current position on the Middle East?
I found it helpful in clarifying the historical situation. This clarification helps inform and explain the ongoing current situation.

I think context is important, don't you?

I agree with you @BaMamma
I think most people in the UK and on Mumsnet are not aware of the historic situation leading up to the establishment of the state of Israel.
The documentary helps set the arguments of both sides in context. I really don't understand why some posters prefer ignorance to informed analysis.The more you know, the more you understand.

Well my apologies if I picked you up wrong.

@Dianapiano 'Tantura' is supposed to be good for historical info. It's an Israeli film, I believe. I definitely found the Israeli film 'Checkpoint' helpful too. It's real footage and interestingly shows Gaza when the Israelis were still there, as it's an old film, before Hamas took power. Pretty horrifying to see the real interactions between checkpoint soldiers and Palestinians. I think travel vlogs on youtube are always interesting if you want to check out life in the West Bank. B'tselem and Breaking the Silence are also interesting for raw, live footage. I expect looking at these Israeli sources helped form my views, but I do need to look out more Palestinian sources. I watched 5 broken cameras recently, which is a Palestinian film, and very helpful to understand the realities also.

I haven't seen Tantura but it sounds very interesting.

And devastatingly topical. Israeli forces kill Palestinian civilians and build an Israeli beach resort over the mass graves.

I haven't seen it either @Lalaloveya I've heard it was good, but didn't know the premise. Topical indeed. Generally, I try to watch documentaries where a camera person shoots without getting involved in the interaction, if you see what I mean. I try to avoid films or programmes with bias or an agenda, though that's difficult.

Thank you for all the suggestions for documentaries. The BBC has lots as well that I hadn't seen when they were first shown. I have just watched one on President Clinton's attempt to broker a peace settlement back in 2000. US presidents all seem to believe they will be the one to make a difference!

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0glcmc1/israel-and-the-arabs-elusive-peace-series-1-1-clinton

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/kerry/tralee-news/gaza-film-screening-in-kerry-set-to-raise-vital-funds-for-war-ravaged-territory/a572341220.html

I'm going to this next week. It's being screened simultaneously in a lot of coastal areas in Ireland. I'll report back!

@Dianapiano Thank you. I will definitely have a look at that as well.

@Lalaloveya Yes, do let us know about your thoughts after watching the film screening.

Not sure quite how this turned into a thread to share documentaries about the plight of the Palestinians!?!

Because it's all about the deflect and derail.

I'm a proud Zionist, whereas before I was a quiet one. Am Yisrael Chai today, tomorrow, and always.

I think we were discussing films and documentaries which helped form our thoughts on the issue, and sharing ideas to learn more. Isn't that relevant?

@25milesfromhome
That is not fair. The premise of the thread is to explain how you reached your current position on the Middle East. For most people it is by watching documentaries, reading scholarly articles and even by engaging in discussion on forums such as Mumsnet.
It is you who is derailing the process. Not posters who are sharing useful sources to explain the background to the issue.