How did you get to your current position on the crisis in the Middle East?

[BaMamma]

Following a poster's comment about her views on Israel/Palestine changing after October 7th, I wonder if other posters' views have changed or if they've been constant since first learning of this issue?

For my part I've always been left leaning and tended to accept the narrative around in the 80s and 90s about how terrible Israel was and awfully they treated the Palestinians, I recall the phrase 'the prisoners have become the prison guards' being bandied about quite a bit. I'll admit I didn't think about it too deeply, even though I had visited Israel as a kid and loved it.
I was at a friend of a friend's house when the Ramallah incident was playing out on the TV screens, he had 24-hour news on and that's all it seemed to be showing. I was appalled at the violence, but he was chuckling, supporting the barbarians tearing those men apart, raising bloodied hands to the crowds.
So, I started reading and kept on reading and thinking and came to an understanding of Israel as the only democracy in the Middle East and the only home for Jews in the world, surrounded by Muslim neighbors. I began to see the conflict in world history terms rather than just Palestine vs Israel and saw the necessity of a Jewish state.

I don't want to derail. I merely countered what I consider to be untruths in one of your posts.

I managed to answer the question posed by the thread myself without providing any inflammatory opinions or disinformation. You're the one derailing by policing what people say and refusing to allow anyone to challenge your inflammatory posts.

This isn't a back and forth thread just a chance to state your position and how you got there. And yes, I am the thread police 😉

Anti-semitic trope: "they are colonisers who know how to manipulate people and the media"

Kindly explain how and why.

My position on the middle-east is in a constant state of flux! I just find it very sad mostly, and feel sorry for innocents on both sides. I come from an evangelical Christian background (more liberal Christian now) and was taught to be pro-Israel. But, I'm politically very left-wing and most of my friends are very pro-Palestine. I was pro-Israel on October 7th, and pro-Palestine when Gaza was being destroyed by the IDF. Very fickle I know.
I'm always about the underdog, and so do have huge sympathy for any displaced people - total sympathy for Jews during the holocaust. Total sympathy for Palestinians during the nakba of 1948 - it's a blooming minefield!
Two groups who've both suffered at different times...
One thing I will say, as a Northern Irish protestant, is that I get slightly upset with the binary views of some of my fellow lefties - to them all Israeli Jews, Northern Irish protestants, white South Africans etc, are less deserving of sympathy in the face of suffering than their counterparts. Which is way too narrow a way of thinking. History is complex and people are individuals. I don't look at someone and think there's an Israeli = bad; there's a Palestinian = good. I think, here's a human, take as I find...
I think it's tragic, and I wish the human race would sort itself out! Animals are generally more sensible I think. I also am upset at the lack of nuance, and lack of respect shown for different viewpoints - I've been called an anti-Semite on this board because I got very emotional when Northern Gaza was being bombed 😔 So hurtful, when it would never occur to me to be racist. But the mud slinging and gotcha-ism has been two sided of course. I think most of us are more balanced, but the biased voices shout louder. I pray for peace in the middle-east 🙏

I've read some of the stories of the bible, including Abram/Abraham. I've heard of the diaspora. I had to study 'The merchant of Venice'. I have seen 'Ivanhoe' on TV. A couple of years ago I learned that when Oliver Cromwell was protector Jews were allowed back into England and maybe more countries of the UK - not sure how much he was in charge of. I saw a film called 'The Inspector'.

People in my family were sent to Egypt in WW2 and went on their leaves up into Palestine, as it was then called. They couldn't pop home to see their Mums in the UK. Jewish women could volunteer for the ATS in WW2. Some did - referred to by my relation as 'the Palestinian girls'. I don't know if Arab Palestinian women could volunteer to be in the ATS. 'Palestine' wasn't part of the British Empire so Palestinian women weren't called into the army as British girls were if they were not in reserved occupations.

I have heard of the Irgun, the Hagganah and the Stern gang. I have heard of the blowing up of the King David Hotel.
When there are television programmes about the holocaust I don't think that it's boring old stuff. I think it's interesting to listen to interviews with people who are talking about any parts of history, not only the holocaust.

I have looked up the 1946/7 UNO proposal for two states in the Holy Land, on Wiki.

I am the same age as India and a year older than Israel. I remember when the 1967 invasion happened. Was it Egypt who attacked Israel? I remember that at some time Moshe Dayan said that however far it was for someone to have marched up the Sinai(?) to attack, it was just the same distance to bugger off back. He was born on a kibbutz and I read that his mother wondered whether to abort him when she was expecting him. I know that the Arab League attacked Israel in 1948.

I have been to Israel, to Jordan and to Egypt. I have stayed in Arab-run hotels and Israeli-run hotels. I have bought gifts in Jewish Israeli shops and in Bethlehem, in a shop run by Arabs/Palestinians. We were given sweet tea and the man in charge said, "Drink your tea. Take as long as you like, and spend your money". I have bought food in all three countries and bought trinkets and bartered for gifts and told a man I couldn't support everyone's family when he was telling me, in the Sinai desert, how many children he had to feed.

I have taken communion in the Anglican church (cathedral?) in Jerusalem. I have visited the Dome of the Rock as a tourist. Is that the right name - the one with the golden dome? I have taken off my shoes and walked there and in Jordan I have taken off my shoes and put on all-enveloping black and walked in a part of a mosque which was for the women.

you are = you're........................................ NOT your

It is really disappointing that my post was deleted. Perhaps the poster who claimed it was anti semitic can explain why but I’m not sure how anyone can respond to OP and explain why they support Palestinians without criticising Israel’s actions.

1. this isn't a back and forth thread. Just introduce yourself and your view and how you got there.
2. your post was deleted as you used an antisemitic trope. That Jews control the media. Google it.

Ok.

I fully support Palestinians.

I support 2 year olds shot by Israeli snipers.

I support pregnant women run over by Israeli tanks.

I support teenagers burnt to death in hospitals bombed by Israel.

I support families seeing their loved ones blown apart in front of them.

I support children and adults dying and losing limbs because of Israel’s indiscriminate bombing.

Hamas is a terror organisation and they are evil in what they’ve done. No one with a conscious can say otherwise. But Israel is allegedly a civilised democracy with an advanced military. The death and destruction they caused was not justified in any way and quite simply carries on the same treatment of Palestinians they have been doing for the past 50 years. Killing innocents, finding any excuse to imprison, taking homes and making everyday life difficult is unjustified. So that’s why I support Palestinians.

Have a look at this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitic_trope

I believe what I said has been taken out of context and did not refer to Jews but thank you for this anyway as I can understand the confusion.

@WinterCosiness I love your post as I feel exactly the same and agree with everything you've said and you've said it better than I ever could

You can ask mumsnet why they removed your post if you think they got it wrong.

I think historically it sucks to be Jewish. They seem to get a shit deal wherever they are.
I also think it sucks to be Palestinian because if Europe hadn’t decided to try and make parts of Palestine their own place for Jewish people then this shit probably wouldn’t be going on.
I hate religion, it seems to create far more evil and conflict than anything else.

I didn't feel that OP was trying to get anyone to agree with her/him - just asking how each of us got to what we are thinking now.

It has been my observation in life that when people say they are doing something in the name of a religion or a sect they are miles away from the essential teaching of that religion, but I don't have a degree in it so I might be wrong.

It’s quite sad that I’ve had posters laugh in response to this. As though innocent people dying is something to laugh about.

It’s very telling as to how some posters think when it comes to this issue. What miserable people they must be.

Anyone can criticise Israel's actions. What is not acceptable is to be racist and to tap into centuries of Jew hatred which has lead to the demonising of Jewish people through tropes and stereotypes. In answer to the op's question, seeing these tropes reemerge in regular conversations about the ME made me realise how antisemitism lies at the heart of attitudes and is the reason why people don't want to listen and engage openly. There is lots to read if you really don't understand. Start with the IHRA definition and google the Livingstone formulation as its particularly relevant to the question of criticising Israel.

After another poster explained, I can see why what I said about colonisers and the media can be taken to be offensive, and I have therefore not objected any further to my post being deleted.

It's just sneaky unpleasantness, because only you can see other's reactions. I've had some, usually in response to people dying. I expect I will get one now, in fact.

Same here. I even have one fan who claims not to want to engage with me but takes the time to give every post I make a laughing emoji.

@Lalaloveya That's one dedicated fan!

I get it too. Not every post though - that's a new level of dedication there.