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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Hamas and Gaza celebrates

641 replies

LetThereBeLove · 16/01/2025 12:37

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

OP posts:
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ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 16:32

NoisyBear · 18/01/2025 16:03

I applaud you for at least being open about the fact that you don't feel like some people are entitled to basic human rights and that you feel they need to earn basic protections. And for being open about the fact that you don't feel International laws should apply to Israel. We are on very different planes clearly and won't ever agree on this. There is nothing else to say really is there.

Until such a time, people planning murder should expect to be treated like attempted murderers.

I do think that you need to ask yourself if racism or perhaps Islamaphobia is clouding your view because you seem to think that all Palestinians are planning murder and that is why you are OK with all Palestinians not having basic protections.

Edited
Show quote history

I missed the edit.
I can assure you I’m not Islamophobic. I have travelled extensively in the West Bank, I worked in Rawabi for a couple of months and in Qualquilya for 6 weeks. I speak passable Arabic, although I learned in Morocco and it’s very different to the Arabic of the West Bank. I have been immersed in Palestinian culture for an extended period of time and I am still in contact with some of my old colleagues and acquaintances. Quite simply, I KNOW how racist it is there. I’ve seen the banners of terrorists commemorated in every village square for their wonderful murders of any random Jews they could reach, the statues of Sadam Hussein on roundabouts and the posters celebrating 9/11. The hatred of Jews is part of the culture and has been for hundreds of years. It will take intensive outside input and a lot of time to fix that.
In the mean time, it is not reasonable to ask Israelis to gambol their lives and the lives of their children on the minuscule chance that the liberals can claim and hold power in an independent Palestine with weapons and an army. A Palestinian army formed tomorrow will fight to the death to destroy Israel and I don’t think there is a power in Palestine or outside it which could prevent that.
Edited because I would fail a SPAG test!

NoisyBear · 18/01/2025 17:29

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 16:18

It’s not at all that “some people don’t deserve rights” and that’s not what I said. Nor is Israel above international law.
Let’s scale this down to individuals to make it easier to understand. You do not have to actually murder someone to be guilty of a crime. The police can and do act before the crime takes place, when the would-be-murderer is eg planning the route, hiring the chainsaw or practising disposing of a corpse. That is already a crime and grounds for arrest.
On a larger scale, Palestinian elected (or not) representative and their allies have consistently said they are planning a genocide. They want to kill all the Jews and replace the Jewish state with another Arab state. They try every chance they get. They may not have achieved it yet, but that does not mean they haven’t done anything wrong. Just like hiring a chainsaw as a would-be murderer is already enough reason for the police to intervene, planning, resourcing and training for an act of war is also grounds for defensive action. It’s not reasonable to expect the Israelis to sit on their hands and wait for Palestine and co to achieve their genocidal goals. By then it’s too late so have to take action before.

What do you want to happen? How do you imagine giving greater sovereignty to a genocidal terrorist organisation will end? There is a tiny chance that the Palestinian political minority could wrestle power from the political elite and accept independence for peace. Far more likely, the terrorists behead them, stay in power and use their new found wealth, connections and weapons to wage war until they win.

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Your post was deleted so I can't quote you but I do believe that my post was an accurate summary of what you said. I will reiterate we are on very different planes, we will never agree, this is pointless, I'm going to go enjoy my evening, I hope you do too.

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 17:45

NoisyBear · 18/01/2025 17:29

Your post was deleted so I can't quote you but I do believe that my post was an accurate summary of what you said. I will reiterate we are on very different planes, we will never agree, this is pointless, I'm going to go enjoy my evening, I hope you do too.

Show quote history

You have not yet said what you think could lead to a stable peace in future. Are you dodging that question for a reason?

I think I have fairly thoroughly explained why giving Palestine less oversight and more military equipment etc will almost inevitably lead to a war against Israel until it is destroyed. The current political elite (and general societal norms) openly admits that they prioritise killing Jews and destroying Israel over literally everything else. Without radically changing that mindset, Palestinian sovereignty is an existential threat to Israel. How do you imagine that could / should be changed? Or do you think Israelis should simply accept that their neighbours are allowed to be genocidal and wait politely for their turn to be gunned down at a festival / commit suicide to save them the bother?

ArtTheClown · 18/01/2025 17:57

I honestly don't know what the answer is. I literally just opened up X to see footage of a stabbing attack in Tel Aviv, carried out by an attacker from the West Bank.

I just don't know where anyone goes from here.

Whatsinanamehey · 18/01/2025 18:00

As Blinken said, the Israelis cannot carry on treating the Palestinians as non-people and think there will be any sort of resolution.

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 18:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Dulra · 18/01/2025 18:15

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

There are peaceful people in Palestine, but they’re a small political minority
Who are you referring to here?

The powerful majority with the might of the state machinery and the international allies are religious fundamentalists who openly admit that their end goal is genocide.
Who are the powerful majority with the might of the state machinery and international allies?

so meeting them halfway means killing half the Israelis.
Gazans or Hamas? have the capability to kill half of the Israelis? They seem to have been hiding that power this past 15 months

immigrant101 · 18/01/2025 18:16

LetThereBeLove · 16/01/2025 12:37

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

You are surprised that people are celebrating not having bombs drop on their heads every hour ? How delusional are u really ? Put yourselves in their shoes wouldn't you be celebrating too ? What will continuing this madness achieve ?

LinnettdeBelleforte · 18/01/2025 18:23

Dulra · 18/01/2025 11:35

It was celebrations
What's wrong with that?

Including phone calls bragging, of killing Jews.
Where are you getting this information?

There were no shouts of yay, we are free
Why would they shout that? They're not free they're are still under an illegal occupation

Show quote history

What's wrong with celebrations of a pogrom!? Are you for real? The poster wasn't talking about the ceasefire, they were talking about 10/07.

Original poster
LetThereBeLove · 18/01/2025 18:26

so meeting them halfway means killing half the Israelis.
'Gazans or Hamas? have the capability to kill half of the Israelis? They seem to have been hiding that power this past 15 months'

Only because Israel has a very expensive defense system and puts the protection of their citizens first, something Hamas terrorists have never done for Palestinians in Gaza. Instead they channelled (no pun intended) most of the millions in aid they received into the underground tunnels, filling them with arms with which to bombard Israel. The rest of the money was spent on luxury lifestyles for some of their leaders well away in other Middle Eastern countries.

OP posts:
EasterIssland · 18/01/2025 18:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Do you have proof of this accusation?

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 18:46

Dulra · 18/01/2025 18:15

There are peaceful people in Palestine, but they’re a small political minority
Who are you referring to here?

The powerful majority with the might of the state machinery and the international allies are religious fundamentalists who openly admit that their end goal is genocide.
Who are the powerful majority with the might of the state machinery and international allies?

so meeting them halfway means killing half the Israelis.
Gazans or Hamas? have the capability to kill half of the Israelis? They seem to have been hiding that power this past 15 months

Show quote history
  1. In the West Bank, At Tarik Af Thalif (The Third Way) is a tiny but somewhat active polical party who advocate for democratic values and non-violent resistance. They have / had allies in Gaza. But, since Hamas abducted, tortured and hanged or beheaded more than 20 of their leaders in Gaza in 2014, they tend to keep a pretty low profile. Social media suggests there are still people in Gaza who oppose Hamas, but I doubt they’re especially organised or ready to lead right now.
  2. In the West Bank, the major political force is Fatah. They are generally accepted to be corrupt and undemocratic. They are part of the Conquest Alliance with non-state allies in the PMF all over the Middle East and lots of state allies. In Gaza, Hamas is the major political force. Their most valuable ally is Iran.
  3. I assume you misunderstood what I said there. I was explaining why Israel can’t “meet them halfway” to make peace. Palestinian “liberation” calls for peace without Israel. For Israel to “meet them halfway” they’d have to half destroy themselves. Obviously that’s absurd.
SpunkyCritic · 18/01/2025 19:07

immigrant101 · 18/01/2025 18:16

You are surprised that people are celebrating not having bombs drop on their heads every hour ? How delusional are u really ? Put yourselves in their shoes wouldn't you be celebrating too ? What will continuing this madness achieve ?

Show quote history

The Palestinians chose terrorism in the early 60s before Israel was in the West Bank and Gaza.

Whatsinanamehey · 18/01/2025 19:21

Imagine criticising people who are celebrating the end of the war after they have been indiscriminately carpet bombed for months. Crazy.

SpunkyCritic · 18/01/2025 19:21

I am fairly new to MN, but have been catching up on this boards.
The lack of ME knowledge is shocking.

Gaza has received billions and billions of money in aid (including from Israel).
The PLO was formed to rid the world of Jews when Jordan was in control. Their whole being is about Anti-semitism.
It's not just Hamas in Gaza. There are about 30-40 other similar smaller groups there claiming they are the justified rulers. All hate Jews.

Whilst the Israelis were agreeable to a 2 state solution, the Palestinians rejected it time and time again. Is it any wonder the Israelis now have reservations? Palestinian leaders (and other Palestinians on X) are still saying they are looking forward to destroying Israel.

How many contributors know why Egypt and Jordan didn't open the floodgates and let refugees in?
If I said Black September to anyone I guarantee 99% would look at me blankly.

Yes, support the innocent people killed on both sides, but to chant "free Palestine", claim genocide and Israel are evil without knowing the history and exactly what you are talking about is completely moronic.

1234Kitty · 18/01/2025 19:28

Spunkycritic, why do people need to know the complete history to know that shooting children in the head is evil?

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 19:41

@SpunkyCritic I think the problem there is that the Palestinian struggle has become an identity marker in the west. It’s simply too much to research and keep up with every conflict and political issue in the world, so a few high-profile issues become a stand-in for all. That necessarily means that the discussion is simplified and generalised so that the general public can choose a side and tell everyone what they chose, to help them find their people. Add in that it’s tempting to want “goodies” and “baddies” in any story and that many people get their news from social media, and you have a perfect storm for strong emotions based on little to no knowledge. Then, once it’s part of your identity, you have to simply close your eyes to the other side and ignore the evidence you don’t like. It’s how we end up with liberal, feminist, democratic “goodies” justifying rape because the women were Jews and amplifying the voices of people trying to destroy a democratic nation state.
You’d think, hearing those voices celebrate “winning” their war and gearing up for the total destruction of Israel, whilst simultaneously claiming to have been victims of a premeditated genocide, that they’d notice there was something amiss, but apparently not!

Dulra · 18/01/2025 19:43

LetThereBeLove · 18/01/2025 18:26

so meeting them halfway means killing half the Israelis.
'Gazans or Hamas? have the capability to kill half of the Israelis? They seem to have been hiding that power this past 15 months'

Only because Israel has a very expensive defense system and puts the protection of their citizens first, something Hamas terrorists have never done for Palestinians in Gaza. Instead they channelled (no pun intended) most of the millions in aid they received into the underground tunnels, filling them with arms with which to bombard Israel. The rest of the money was spent on luxury lifestyles for some of their leaders well away in other Middle Eastern countries.

Only because
Yes only because of a raft of reasons so they don't have the capability to kill half of Israelis

Dulra · 18/01/2025 19:44

LinnettdeBelleforte · 18/01/2025 18:23

What's wrong with celebrations of a pogrom!? Are you for real? The poster wasn't talking about the ceasefire, they were talking about 10/07.

Edited
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Read the messages that followed you'll see there was a misunderstanding which celebrations were being discussed

SharonEllis · 18/01/2025 19:44

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 19:41

@SpunkyCritic I think the problem there is that the Palestinian struggle has become an identity marker in the west. It’s simply too much to research and keep up with every conflict and political issue in the world, so a few high-profile issues become a stand-in for all. That necessarily means that the discussion is simplified and generalised so that the general public can choose a side and tell everyone what they chose, to help them find their people. Add in that it’s tempting to want “goodies” and “baddies” in any story and that many people get their news from social media, and you have a perfect storm for strong emotions based on little to no knowledge. Then, once it’s part of your identity, you have to simply close your eyes to the other side and ignore the evidence you don’t like. It’s how we end up with liberal, feminist, democratic “goodies” justifying rape because the women were Jews and amplifying the voices of people trying to destroy a democratic nation state.
You’d think, hearing those voices celebrate “winning” their war and gearing up for the total destruction of Israel, whilst simultaneously claiming to have been victims of a premeditated genocide, that they’d notice there was something amiss, but apparently not!

Spot on.

SharonEllis · 18/01/2025 19:45

Dulra · 18/01/2025 19:43

Only because
Yes only because of a raft of reasons so they don't have the capability to kill half of Israelis

Show quote history

Totally missed the point!

LinnettdeBelleforte · 18/01/2025 19:50

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 19:41

@SpunkyCritic I think the problem there is that the Palestinian struggle has become an identity marker in the west. It’s simply too much to research and keep up with every conflict and political issue in the world, so a few high-profile issues become a stand-in for all. That necessarily means that the discussion is simplified and generalised so that the general public can choose a side and tell everyone what they chose, to help them find their people. Add in that it’s tempting to want “goodies” and “baddies” in any story and that many people get their news from social media, and you have a perfect storm for strong emotions based on little to no knowledge. Then, once it’s part of your identity, you have to simply close your eyes to the other side and ignore the evidence you don’t like. It’s how we end up with liberal, feminist, democratic “goodies” justifying rape because the women were Jews and amplifying the voices of people trying to destroy a democratic nation state.
You’d think, hearing those voices celebrate “winning” their war and gearing up for the total destruction of Israel, whilst simultaneously claiming to have been victims of a premeditated genocide, that they’d notice there was something amiss, but apparently not!

👏👏

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 19:52

Dulra · 18/01/2025 19:43

Only because
Yes only because of a raft of reasons so they don't have the capability to kill half of Israelis

Show quote history

You utterly missed the point. I was the first one to mention killing half the Israelis, but a couple of my posts have mysteriously disappeared.
The context was about compromise and meeting each other halfway to make a stable peace agreement. I was explaining why this is a delusional idea. Palestinian political and social leaders, especially Hamas, clearly say that they want peace without Israel. They say that they will do whatever is necessary to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. Their actions so far have consistently confirmed that they will live up to their words whenever they have the opportunity to. So if Israel were to try to meet them halfway in the name of peace, it would require Israel to be half destroyed, ie halfway to not existing. That is obviously absurd and no democratic nation would ever vote for a party running on the promise to kill or exile half of their own citizens to appease the terrorists next door.

EasterIssland · 18/01/2025 19:56

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 19:41

@SpunkyCritic I think the problem there is that the Palestinian struggle has become an identity marker in the west. It’s simply too much to research and keep up with every conflict and political issue in the world, so a few high-profile issues become a stand-in for all. That necessarily means that the discussion is simplified and generalised so that the general public can choose a side and tell everyone what they chose, to help them find their people. Add in that it’s tempting to want “goodies” and “baddies” in any story and that many people get their news from social media, and you have a perfect storm for strong emotions based on little to no knowledge. Then, once it’s part of your identity, you have to simply close your eyes to the other side and ignore the evidence you don’t like. It’s how we end up with liberal, feminist, democratic “goodies” justifying rape because the women were Jews and amplifying the voices of people trying to destroy a democratic nation state.
You’d think, hearing those voices celebrate “winning” their war and gearing up for the total destruction of Israel, whilst simultaneously claiming to have been victims of a premeditated genocide, that they’d notice there was something amiss, but apparently not!

Does this apply as well to judges as well who have requested an arrest warrant for Israeli PM and also the international court who has said Israel is illegally occupying Palestine, and also several doctors who have been to Gaza in the last few years and seen the devastation of Israel actions? Does this mean all these experts have closed their eyes as they’ve embedded the Palestinian - Israel conflict as part of their identity marker you’re talking about ?

NoisyBear · 18/01/2025 19:57

ChangeyerNameyer · 18/01/2025 17:45

You have not yet said what you think could lead to a stable peace in future. Are you dodging that question for a reason?

I think I have fairly thoroughly explained why giving Palestine less oversight and more military equipment etc will almost inevitably lead to a war against Israel until it is destroyed. The current political elite (and general societal norms) openly admits that they prioritise killing Jews and destroying Israel over literally everything else. Without radically changing that mindset, Palestinian sovereignty is an existential threat to Israel. How do you imagine that could / should be changed? Or do you think Israelis should simply accept that their neighbours are allowed to be genocidal and wait politely for their turn to be gunned down at a festival / commit suicide to save them the bother?

Show quote history

Would anything I say change your rather 'niche' views that keep getting you deleted? Children being sexually assaulted, villages being burned to the ground, people living without basic rights under a system of apartheid, none of that matters to you as much as Israel does. Like I said it is a pointless conversation when someone believes that one country should be able to do anything they like whether it is within the confines of the law or not if they feel threatened but another set of people don't deserve to have human rights because some of them think bad thoughts when they are being threatened.