Hamas and Gaza celebrates

[LetThereBeLove]

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

No I didn't

mysteriously disappeared.
Or deleted because they were against talk guidelines.....

Yes, you did. The poster has explained again what they meant.

The posters comments keep getting deleted so hard to know.

Palestinian political and social leaders, especially Hamas, clearly say that they want peace without Israel. They say that they will do whatever is necessary to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews. Their actions so far have consistently confirmed that they will live up to their words whenever they have the opportunity to

And so have Israel, but you seem to think that's ok? This did not start on October 7th, it started in 1948. Please look up the death and injury stats on both sides and then see for yourself who is taking the opportunity to kill who.

Tbh yes I agree with the poster with what they meant once it’s been explained in their last comment. However , im lacking as well a comment about the current Israeli government. Israeli government whilst not a terrorist group, they don’t see Palestinians as humans but animals and are seeking the destruction of the Palestinians (gvir i.e). There can be a ceasefire but it won’t last long whilst Hamas and the current Israeli government as in place. Many things need to change for peace in the area.

Its not hard to know if you are willing to try to understand. It was perfectly clear to start with and they have explained again. They were referring to the concept of meeting 'half way' which is a basic negotiating concept. As Hamas wants to completely destroy Israel and all Jews 'half way' is not really possible, hence mention of killing half.

First of all, there are experts on both sides. It’s not simply a case of “goodies” and “baddies” no matter how satisfying that might be.
I think there is a tendency, especially on MN, to consider international bodies like the UN etc to somehow be more than the sum of their parts. Law within a state is backed up by the state’s right and ability to enforce compliance. International law is not. So international law is essentially a synonym for politics. That means that “neutral” bodies are no more neutral than the members which form them. While I am sure there are plenty of judges who are well informed and genuinely aspire to be neutral, that isn’t human nature, it isn’t the nature of international law and there is little to no way to counter them. So no, I don’t think the courts are some magical, infallible, politically neutral machine. They’re people with interests representing countries which have interests.
I totally believe that doctors going into war zones see the worst of the worst. I am sure that has been true throughout history and across the world. It’s the nature of being an emergency doctor that you find yourself surrounded by people in emergency need of medical aid. Their opinions are valid, useful and not representative of the whole situations.
Perhaps you already know that there is no shortage of doctors, both Palestinian and foreign, who confirm that Hamas used Gaza’s hospitals as military bases and treated ambulances like their own personal taxi service. In international law, medical infrastructure has a protected status unless it is being used for military proposes, then the special status is revoked and the obligation is simply to cause as little harm to it as possible.

So if Israel were to try to meet them halfway in the name of peace, it would require Israel to be half destroyed, ie halfway to not existing. That is obviously absurd and no democratic nation would ever vote for a party running on the promise to kill or exile half of their own citizens to appease the terrorists next door.
So what do you suggest? You also keep saying meeting them half way, what is half way? Gaza are still under an illegal occupation or are you against a two state solution? Maybe I keep missing your point because it's as clear as mud what you are trying to say

What I find troubling is that some extremely dangerous people are being released from Israeli jails as part of the ceasefire deal, and I genuinely don't understand why anyone would want them free or want them back. Prisoners like Arafat Irafaiya, who raped and murdered a teenager.

It’s not courts but independent international doctors as well as international organisations. Do they all have interests ?

No, international doctors have said several times that they’ve never seen Hamas using hospitals as military bases. There is yet proof to be shown as well as verified that this is the case. So far , only Israel has accused but not provided full proof of this.

Its one of the issues that really lays bare how imbalanced the discussion is doesnt it? If someone cares about Palestimians why on earth would they want murderers and terrorists released to terrorise, radicalise and coerce young Palestians into their brigades as cannon fodder? Is barbaric. Its not jist that these people make peace with Israel less likely but it makes rebuilding Palestinian civil society less likely too.

Neither 'side' is a winner. Hamas is not indicative of the Palestinian people, and the Israeli state is not indicative of the Israeli people. This is a terrible system which has been created largely by the West - Britain, France, America - who effectively forced Jewish people en masse to settle in Israel post WW2 through refusing to take Jewish refugees, and the mistreatment of the Jewish refugees who did settle with them. Furthermore, the trauma of the Holocaust encouraged many Jewish people to settle in Israel, as they felt that many other countries would always maltreat them. The 'two state solution' was thought up by the West, and doesn't work. This isn't the Palestinian or Israeli people's fault, it's the fault of the West which organised and orchestrated this affair and forced two groups of people into one small space.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation. The Palestinian people have been systematically oppressed for years now. These are not mutually exclusive statements: both can be true at the same time. While Hamas indisputably 'started' it, this doesn't mean that the conditions the Palestinian people have been forced under aren't horrific (this doesn't mean that Hamas's violence is justified, but this doesn't mean that the Israeli state's treatment of Palestine is justified either). Even before the Israeli state bombed them, Gaza is tiny, overcrowded, and the Israeli state has prevented the Palestinian people from accessing crucial resources for years. If you look at the recent bombing of Palestine there is no way of looking at it which doesn't reveal it to be gratuitous violence - the mass bombing of innocent civilians and children is an obvious genocide under the thin veil of 'justice'.

Netanyahu is a terrifying megalomaniac who is on record for committing war crimes. He is not representative of his people, and if you look at the Israeli news a lot of it is actually pretty critical of the Israeli state. The Jewish people have been oppressed and mistreated for centuries across the world, and anti-semitism is a very real and horrific experience for many Jewish people. This still doesn't mean that the Israeli state is justified in its treatment of the Palestinian people.

I have never and will never support sexual violence by anyone or against anyone. I’m not sure where you got that from.

I simply want to hear what you think the future should look like. You’re extremely reluctant to share, which makes me wonder if perhaps your favourite path to peace is one without Israel in it. How do you imagine giving sovereignty to a terrorist organisation will play out?

For example they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

however, they kept restrictions about who can go in/out and many times refusing access to medical aid. As well as keeping restrictions about water and aid that can go into Gaza. It wasn’t a full withdrawal in 2005.

But a loud mouth politician from a small, radical political party saying something awful is not the same as the military acting on it or the elected representatives pouring all of their resources into it.

I can’t agree with this. These politicians you’re talking about are part of the government and are allowing settlers to expand in Palestine land and allowing the attacks Palestinians are going through by these settlers. So these politicians are part of the problem , same way Hamas is part of the problem.

these politicians as well as Hamas and settlers need to disappear for a successful 2 state solution

Its not hard to know if you are willing to try to understand
Always so patronising

It was perfectly clear to start with and they have explained again.
It was as clear as mud in my view.

They were referring to the concept of meeting 'half way' which is a basic negotiating concept.
What is half way though in these negotiations? It is a ceasefire deal not extensive peace negotiations that could potentially lead to an end to the Israeli occupation and a Palestinian state. Afaik phase 1 is only to last 6 weeks!

I don’t really know how else to try to explain what I meant. It was an offhand comment to try to illustrate why Israel can’t compromise with Palestine for peace if Hamas are negotiating. Hamas has the fundamental demand that Israel must cease to exist and Israelis must be killed or exiled. Israel cannot possible concede on this. Obviously! If Hamas has “no more Israel” as a prerequisite for negotiating and Israel has “we still exist” as their prerequisite, then there’s no negotiating possible. The “meet them halfway” point was to illustrate how utterly impossible it is to negotiate with terrorists. You can’t “meet someone halfway” when that means half destroying yourself.

@SharonEllis You seem to be very well-versed with Israeli actions, what are your thoughts on Bibi Netanyahu prolonging an unjust war to avoid elections?

From reading last year’s articles, it seems as though Daniel Hagari, the Israeli military spokesperson who infamously incorrectly pointing to a calendar claiming it's a Hamas guard roster in an army video, seemed to have a rift with Bibi and wanted to withdraw Israeli military from Gaza but Bibi is so obsessed with Hamas despite the billions of dollars Israel receives from America and it’s still not enough. And WCK were targeted despite their route being known, but somehow the Israeli government have to hide behind the notion of “human shields”?

Before Israel, Palestine and Jordan were formed, there was British Transjordan. There had never been a sovereign Palestinian state to “steal”. The existence of Israel is no more a theft of Palestinian land than the existence of Jordan is! None of them was a sovereign nation. Jordan actually claimed the West Bank for themselves for quite a long time.

Jewish Palestinians would be murdered and you’d have to be really very ill informed to doubt that. Jewish minorities in Arab countries were not historically given equal rights. They experienced a lot of racism and pogroms. We think of it as having been “better” than Jews experienced in Christian nations just because the Christian nations set the bar so low. Since then, the Palestinian political elite has generally been pro murdering all the Jews and they have attempted to at every chance they got. It would be rather silly to assume they’d somehow change their minds if they had the power to actually achieve their goal. When jihadis gain sovereignty, it’s always bad for all of the minorities who can’t escape. Look at how minorities did under ISIS. Hamas are allied with ISIS. It’s reasonable to assume something similar would happen to the Jews as happened to the Yazidis. There has never been this golden age of peaceful coexistence. The Arab nations tolerated Jews as long as they were second class citizens with fewer rights. In different areas and eras this varied, but it included limitations on where they could live, prohibitions on owning land, limits on jobs they could take and eg who Jewish doctors could treat, limits on religious freedoms, additional taxes etc etc. There was also violent antisemitism.
Even if there were a tiny chance that might not happen, you do not have the right to ask Jews to risk a genocide because you’re optimistic that the Jihadis were actually lying and are nice people underneath.

Astonishing how many lies, misinformation and contradictions can be crammed into one post.

If you think there’s anything inaccurate in what I said, please do elaborate. I’m happy to provide evidence on any or all points you dislike.

Such as?