Hamas and Gaza celebrates

[LetThereBeLove]

Hillel Nueur, International human rights lawyer, writer, Executive Director of United Nations Watch writes: 'Never before in history has a side claimed that they suffered a genocide and at the same time that they won the war they had started.'

If you read only a handful of messages on social media today and watch the news, people in Gaza are celebrating and Hamas state they will continue (their barbarity) until Israel is eradicated. I won't repost these as anyone can find them easily.

As for what past generations did? More of the same. A civil war pre-1948. Then continuously attacking Israel. Not accepting the Camp David agreement.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Alfred Einstein

Choose actions which will give you a future.

Since when did 'make a deal' = 'put up & shut up'.

Its impossible to have a conversation when anything people say is deliberately & gratuitously misinterpreted.

Funny you should mention Einstein, did you read about his views about the Deir Yassin massacre when up to 110 Palestinians were murdered and raped and mutilated by Zionist paramilitaries.

So if we are to mention the sins of our forefathers we should probably look at the two sides.

You're the only one talking about sins of forefathers

I think @sharonellis is right that there's no point in attempting a conversation when you deliberately misinterpret and create strawmen.

You asked what I would do. I told you.

As always, my pragmatic viewpoint is that all Palestinians should stop attacking Israel. Now. Not because of rights and wrongs, but because it's the only way things will get better for them - or at least stop getting worse.

Hamas are completely screwing Palestinians over, and celebrating that is disgusting of Hamas and short-sighted of Palestinians.

Or when the British media reported that the Irish brought the famine on themselves.

Colonialists like to absolve themselves of any blame.

I probably wouldn't accept the role my grandparents and parents had played in my shitty situation

I was responding to this in your previous post which I interpreted as past generations of Palestinians were to blame for their current situation.. (Ie forefathers)

No need for the passive aggressive emoji.

And I had told you what I meant by that already.

Nothing to do with 'sins'. Everything to do with consequence of actions.

'Role' implies partial responsibility. "Not accepting the role parents and grandparents played" means that the Palestinians blame Israel entirely.

Which they do.

It would be better if they - and the Westerners who keep encouraging them to fight with an armchair-combatant's ill-informed narrative of good vs evil - could finally recognised that their historic actions- as well as Israel's - fed into their current situation... and if they want things to change then they need to choose different actions. Otherwise things will just continue to get worse for Palestinians.

But I won't hold my breath.

Whether Israelis are colonists depends on how you define it, and I don't want to discuss that or who are the indigenous people and past actions on both sides.

Could you let me know if you believe in a two-state solution? If yes, what concessions should both sides make for a two-state solution?

What actions should they take?

Do you believe in a two state solution?

Yes I do.

For this to happen, Hamas has to go. As a group but more difficulty as an idealogy. Attacks on Israel must never happen again.What I would fear would happen would be akin to Ireland after the War of Independence when a bloody civil war with long lasting consequences was fought due to the terms of the Treaty that meant the six counties were retained by Britain. I would draw parallels with this as whatever Treaty Israel and Palestine agree to will not satisfy all and therefore violence could continue.

Anyway I digress, to rid Palestine of Hamas will mean international cooperation and support (preferably without the US for the next 4 years)whoever comes to power will have to be moderate but strong enough to lead a country that will have deep scars.

Israel on their part need to withdraw and allow Palestinian borders to be drawn. They need to allow free movement between Gaza and the West Bank and not occupy the areas in any way.
They will also need strong moderate governance to support a scarred population that will always fear the next attack for generations.

I really don't know, holding hands and singing kumbyeyah doesn't look like likey in the future but if it has happened in Northern Ireland long long long term hopefully it could happen too.

@statsfun what you have written is absolutely disturbing ! Palestinian's should give up and accept their fate since they cannot "win"
The have to be the "perfect" victims if they dare to demand more they are savage animals

Yes it is.

What sort of thinking is that. Israel can do more damage than you can so just accept your fate.

Not accept your fate. Stop committing terrorist atrocities.

The fact you object to that is disturbing.

Stop committing terrorist atrocities.

I haven't objected to this anywhere. My post was in reference to the west bank. Should they just give up and accept that Israel will continue to take their land because if they try and fight back it will just make things worse for themselves?

The Palestinians there have a right to resist the illegal military occupation. That's very different to attacking uninvolved civilians which I haven't condoned at all.

A two year old girl has just been killed In the west bank by Israeli forces and her mum injured. Is this something the Palestinians should just lie down and accept.

Just looked at it there @Whatsinanamehey , she was shot in the head. That's just shocking.

@statsfun what does a Palestine that does not resist look like to you?

Are you suggesting that terrorist activities are legitimate resistance?

But they do attack uninvolved civilians. All the time. Like the 3 Israelis killed and eight wounded in a Palestinian shooting attack on a bus and two cars in the north of the occupied West Bank on the 6th Jan. All. The. Time. You just don't hear about it because your news sources don't amplify it.

What reason do Israelis have to believe that the violence would magically stop if they ceded security control?

And what reason do the Palestinians have to believe that Israel would cede control if the violence did stop?

It's a Mexican stand off. Neither wants to act first.

But Palestinians have more to gain from breaking the deadlock, and nothing to lose if they change behaviour first and the Israelis don't follow suit. Because their violence is achieving nothing for them anyway.

Whereas the Israelis have less to gain and much, much more to lose if they give up security control and Palestinians don't stop violence. Because their security control does stop some of the murders.

So it's the Palestinians who need to give up violence first. It's the only way anything will ever improve.

Yes, and it won't make headline news because Palestinian children being killed by the IDF is nothing new.

Obeying the law and not attacking anyone. That's all.

But it needs to be everyone.

No knife attacks. No explosives. No shooting attacks on cars and buses. No rockets.

@statsfun actually I do know about it and read about it at the time. Which is also why I specified uninvolved civilians.

And what happens the next time the IDF come to demolish your house and force you to leave for a petty reason and then give that land to a settler. You just accept it and re-build another house for them to come and demolish that too because getting a permit is like finding gold at the end of a rainbow. So the Palestinians should just continue to live under apartheid conditions in the occupied west bank?