"You see us burning, you stay silent..."

[Scirocco]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr54y0qplgvo

Please, read, listen and see what is being done to innocent people here.

Remember them.

Now, perhaps more than at any previous time in history, we can easily know the human cost of hate and violence, and the human cost of looking away.

Remember them. And remember all the other innocent people who have died and continue to die because of hatred and because of apathy.

Sorry forgot to tag you my response above is to this post

"Out of curiosity would people here who feel dropping the atomic bomb in Japan was in some way justified feel the same if it was used again? What would be the scenario now that you think it could be used? Israel/ Gaza has been rumbling on for decades would the atomic bomb on Gaza solve it and end it quickly?"

If you voted Keir Starmer or Tory in this country so that's most people. If you are European, American, Canadian and support Nato. Then you support the nuclear deterrent that arguable has prevented WW3 for 75 years. Most people support it. It only works as a detterent because there is both the capabilty AND intention to use it. The scenario for use has been written by Starmer and is on a letter locked away in the safe on board HMS . Generally thought to be a fall of our Government (failure to make contact) after a Russian attack.

Scirocco · Today 15:31
"When people dropped nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or bombed Dresden and other cities, they didn't bring freedom to the people of those places. They brought death.
The freedom that was celebrated was for other people, not the people in those targeted areas."
Really? These actions culminated in the removal of Hitler and Hirohita (well he denounced his divinity LOL). People in Japan and Germany did NOT have freedom before May 1945. These awful actions freed all the Germans and all the Japanese peoples from their own leaders - two of the worst genocidal maniacs that this world has ever seen. Germany and Japan are great and enthusiastic allies now, two democracies where all the people are free so that indicates some part of their thinking. These 2 tyrants were both bad *ers who needed to be removed and after 6 years the allies were on their knees. The war had to be ended quickly before those 2 psychos developed similar WMD. Ultimately it saved lives. We're alive today because of these actions.

Auvergne63, "I think you need to read up on the Geneva convention and its 1949 and 1977 protocols.
The 1949 protocol was put in place following WW2, following the events you mention in order to make sure that they could never be repeated.

Geneva Covention was signed 1929 and amended 1949. Whilst at the same time the main players outraced each other to create new means of inflicting and delivering even more genocide than their rivals.

"If they happened today, they would be classified as war crimes. I view them as such"
But WMD are still in existence and still being developed by many countries. UK Government is developing replacement for Trident boats at the mo. Military bases like Porton Down contains all sorts of nerve agents, anthrax, etc for us to use in self defence. Today several countries are desperate to embrace the protection of these illegal UK / USA WMDs (Finland, Sweden etc)

My point is that it is up to each country to decide how to defend itself. This country is hypocritical condemning Israel whilst being nice and secure under their umbrella of illegal to use WMD protection.

Dulra, "These events are not now within the laws of war"

No they are legal to be used in self defence. That's why we have them. Rightly or wrongly this is what Israel is arguing - Hamas / Palestine's Genocidal attack has torn up the rule book, and the UN hasn't had time to write a new one since Oct 7 so there is no rule book to follow.

Our country (UK) has authorised use of WMD in the event of self Defence. Starmer and every prime minister for 70 years has signed a letter specifically ordering the Royal Navy to action this sort of event in certain scenarios of self defence.

USA France Canada, 90% of Europe has a similar stance as this is their sole reason for seeking Nato membership.

@RAplusOne yes, really. It's not possible to bring people freedom in this life by killing them. Many Palestinians in Gaza would welcome the removal of Hamas. They don't exactly feel that committing war crimes against them is the best route for achieving that, though. The huge numbers of civilian casualties, societal destruction, injuries and psychological harm are not necessary. There are alternatives, but the Israeli government is choosing not to choose them.

Thank you. It is so hard, and I think people can sometimes forget that for some of us, the people in harm's way are our loved ones. I pray for safety and peace for all the innocent people in this conflict, and for all of us - even if we may be physically safer (I don't know where you are, but I hope you're safe!), it's hard for any of us to heal when the trauma is ongoing.

I can sympathise why you hold this view from an emotional perspective but try looking at it from a logical perspective.

The Battle for Okinawa in July 1945 resulted in 50k US casualties (or 35% of troops), 150k civilians died (or 30%) and 98k Japanese soldiers died (or 93%).

Given the refusal to surrender and fanaticism of the Japanese to keep fighting it was expected that the planned invasion of Japan itself would result in US casualties of over a million, Japanese military deaths of 3 to 4 million and Japanese civilian deaths of over 10 million.

However a land invasion of Japan was not needed because it surrendered after the dropping of the atomic bombs.

So yes whilst dropping atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima was horrific and resulted in the deaths of 250k mostly civilians, it did avoid the need for a mainland Japan invasion thereby averting the deaths of many millions of lives.

That is why I think the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan was justified as the lesser of two evils.

Geneva Covention was signed 1929 and amended 1949. Whilst at the same time the main players outraced each other to create new means of inflicting and delivering even more genocide than their rivals.
I think you do not understand the difference between manufacturing atomic weapons ( not illegal) and using said weapons (illegal). That is why the Geneva convention was amended in1949, well in part.
But WMD are still in existence and still being developed by many countries. UK Government is developing replacement for Trident boats at the mo. Military bases like Porton Down contains all sorts of nerve agents, anthrax, etc for us to use in self defence. Today several countries are desperate to embrace the protection of these illegal UK / USA WMDs (Finland, Sweden etc)
As I wrote above, these weapons are not illegal. I don't know where you seem to think they are.
You also need to read on why NATO was formed and what Porton Down does
Why was NATO (the North Atlantic Treaty Organization) created in 1949 - DailyHistory.org
Porton Down: What's inside the UK's top-secret laboratory? - BBC News

"The world has rejected and abandoned Palestinians - to Hamas and to Israel."

The truth is, the world is watching Israel - rather in amazement - take on terrorism and defeat it if at all possible. Exactly what Netanyahu warned the world Israel was going to do. It lets the enemy know and the world know that the time has come for the world to take out terrorist states, terrorist political parties, all terrorists. There should be no safe place in civilization for terrorist. The Palestinians have been deceived and manipulated by terrorists for too long; the time has come for it to stop. Frankly, I admire the person who can do this - it is called leadership.

Someone MUST send the message to terrorists that the gloves are off and if the terrorists fight by no rules, the response to their terror will have no rules. They will never be defeated if civilized rules are followed, because terrorists are not only uncivilized they are crazy.

Thankfully at least non-terrorist countries such as Israel, who do defend themselves do all they can to mitigate collateral damage.

Hamas and Hezbolla operate using rule by terror. Terrorists PREY on those who have no strong leadership and kill innocents (Palestinians) in the process. Iran assists, and Iran cannot even CONTROL their terrorists, but Iran keeps stoking and supporting terror worldwide. Look at how they are trying to influence by attacking ships; they are trying to turn any world support of Israel by using others: just as they USE those poor Palestinians.

My condolences to ANY and ALL peoples who are NOT terrorists; those who are caught up in this war against terrorists. It is terrible. If the world would work together to support the destruction of terrorism, by Israel, (or any other democracy/country), any war against terrorist would end much sooner.

The world can only stop the burning and save Palestinians if we can wipe out all terrorists. A terrorist state cannot live next to Israel any more than one can live next door to the US or any other democracy or country which recognizes rules of war. But we CANNOT use democratic rules of war when wiping out terror and terrorists.

The collateral damage is what terrorists LOVE to control the rest of the world. The rest of the world has compassion and terrorists know this. We must be stronger and come together to defeat this scourge terror brings.

I feel sorry for all those civilians and countries who have to live as neighbours of Israel. They have killed and killed and killed. They are an oppressive state. They operate through genocide and ethnic cleansing and those in the minority that are 'cheering them on' are complicit in their war crimes.

And those who come on mumnsnet and unabashedly advocate for war crimes (fighting without rules) are just like the terrorists they are fighting. They should also seek therapy before it's too late for them.

We absolutely HAVE to use methods within international law to defeat terrorism. Committing further terrorist attacks and war crimes makes countries as bad (if not worse) than the terrorists they may have wished to fight. People can't defeat terrorism by becoming terrorists.

It is a bizarre viewpoint to hold and of course they would become the monsters they are trying to defeat.

Absolutely, but they refuse to accept or see that. And that is why as each passing day goes where more and more people are murdered, the support slips away even more. Israel is now a pariah state that has lost all credibility.

Dresden didn't save a single life. British and US bombing strategy was decided well before WW2.

There are few words to describe Hitler and the Nazi party, and it true they did no good for the German people, but that in no way justifies the strategic bombing of German cities. The loss of aircrew was also devastating for the Allies - likewise PTSD and suicide is rising rapidly among IDF members preparing for their second deployment to Gaza.

Allied bombing strategy was hotly debated at the time, both in the press and in the house of commons. It was a minority view before the war - just one that was held by extremely powerful people.

I think that at this stage, if you cannot see what the Israeli government is doing is the erasing of any entire people in the name of self defence, you must have lost your humanity. No one, who witnesses the scenes of children being blown up. burnt and murdered in the cruellest way and who doesn't feel horror is, in my view, beyond understanding.
As Martin Luther King said "One who condones evils is just as guilty as the one who perpetrates it.

Progressive, " The vast majority of the world is completely horrified by the Israeli genocide of Palestinians".

Agreed. But at the same time they are even more horrified at any alternative to what Israel is doing. It's why they (mainly powerful Western democracies) continue to arm and supply Israel. Basically the vast majority of the world wants to achieve two things but they are in order 1. Defeat of Genocidal maniacs like Hamas, 2. reduction of civilian deaths.

The World is saying that this current situation (aiding the war whilst meekly asking for a redcution in civilian deaths) will continue until Hamas are destroyed, or removed. There's no other ending here.

Prolonging this war will only cause more casualties. Palestinians - reach out to the rest of the world, Egypt and Jordan are your neighbours (Geographically and culturally) and examples of what rejecting terrorism can lead to. Iran is not the friend you think they are.

Do you actually believe what you have written?
No words.

Yes, I'm actually genuinely intrigued by the psychology of people in such denial. Are they literally closing their ears and eyes?! Earlier in the thread I described them as sociopathic. I actually felt a bit guilty about that, as it's probably more complex in some cases. But, it beats me. I'm completely mystified by it.
Individual Israelis and their supporters seem to take criticism of their government and military, way too personally. Britain quite rightly gets a great deal of criticism for its colonial past, and foreign policy more recently. But, I know that's not personal. Criticism of the British state isn't criticism of me personally. In fact I completely concur with the criticism. But, there's something about Israel - its cheerleaders just can't seem to make that distinction. Can't seem to view the situation objectively, and see what the rest of the world sees. Very odd.

Auvergne63, "Do you actually believe what you have written?
No words."

Yes I do because it is FACT.
1: For the last year Israel has been destroying Hammas with some success. 4 Billionaires dead. 40,000 civilians have also died.
2: For the last year the rest of the world has increased military sales to Israel. They NOT running out of weapons / ammunition. They even have F35s.

The supply of weapons / ammunition is de facto support for their current actions.

Isreal could not have waged that war for a year without the supplies from other countries.

Yes business is booming for the morally bankrupt who sell weapons to Israel. It doesn't necessarily indicate support of their actions. And some countries have slowed down like France and the UK.

Kake, " It doesn't necessarily indicate support of their actions"

err Dictionary say the definition of support is to give assistance

Assistance that they benefit financially from. It's a business transaction.