"You see us burning, you stay silent..."

[Scirocco]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr54y0qplgvo

Please, read, listen and see what is being done to innocent people here.

Remember them.

Now, perhaps more than at any previous time in history, we can easily know the human cost of hate and violence, and the human cost of looking away.

Remember them. And remember all the other innocent people who have died and continue to die because of hatred and because of apathy.

i dont think that's right. I think Israel just wants to remove the ability for Palestine to be able to do this in the future. And with this ability (Hamas) being embedded in civilian areas civilian casualties is collateral.

This is how Conflicts usually end. Topical that it is Trafalgar day.... The battle of Trafalgar didn't lead to GB to occupy murder eradicate France and Spain. It actually stopped the conflict as it removed the ability of France and Spain to offensively attack us. Similar Spannish Armarda, WW1 (although failed to enforce treaty of Versailles), WW2, Falklands, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Bosnia conflicts. Regime change is quite a common solution especially when it involves a dictatorship (Hamas).

The majority of the wars you're referencing are before the Geneva Convention. There are now laws which dictate how you can conduct your war and Israel are breaking many of them.

Bosnia was a genocide so not sure why you think that's a model to follow

Scirroco,

If you live in UK, USA, Europe you are in "a country doesn't get a free pass to destroy another country or group of people however they want". Trident submarine is on station permanently to carry out Genocide at the request of your elected Government. I'm just pointing out that it is hypocritical to expect Israel to defend themselves in a different manner to how we do it.

UK, USA, UN Europe, will not get involved again without regime change. Hamas, and their predecessors have a reputation for murdering all the peacekeepers supplied previously by us. Being democracies Peace keepers coming home in body bags loses elections. Little boy cried wolf.

"Join the world... we want to help you comes across as rather patronising and with a bit of a colonial vibe to it. " Not my intention - merely answering the question 'What needs to happen to end the suffering?" Talking is the solution here. But not with Hamas. It's not me saying this - it's what the whole World is saying.

Dulra, "The majority of the wars you're referencing are before the Geneva Convention. There are now laws which dictate how you can conduct your war and Israel are breaking many of them.
Bosnia was a genocide so not sure why you think that's a model to follow"

This is awkward ....... I quoted 9 wars. only 3 were before the Geneva convention.

The law of right to self defence is the actual law enabling Israel to conduct the war as they are. It's why the UK, USA, Europe are assisting them. Israel breaking this law - I don't know it is a bit grey. Bending it? yes i think so.

Bosnia was a genocide. I was clearly talking about the UK and Nato response to that genocide and the actions taken that stopped it and prevented it carrying on that eventually achieved peace. This is obviously quite relevant.

Let's not aspire to the levels of Bosnia or the 'War on Terror', ffs.

And anyone who at this point dismisses the civilian deaths in Gaza as simply 'collateral' must be well aware of how heartless that is. To you, these may be numbers that you can ignore, but to some of us, they're people we love - our friends, family, colleagues... They were innocent people we knew, who we shared joy and sadness with, who we worked alongside. And they were killed, in their thousands, by Israeli forces.

Hamas needed to be dismantled and the perpetrators of the October 7th atrocities brought to justice. But this was not the only course of action available. This was chosen by Israel. And yes, the old 'urban combat is difficult' excuses get brought out. It is. But it can be done with fewer casualties and without dropping over 70 million tons of ordnance onto an area the size of Detroit. People say Gaza needed to be freed from Hamas - generally speaking, freeing innocent people is not achieved by committing war crimes against them or killing large numbers of them.

There are estimates that 5-7% of people in Gaza have been killed in this conflict. That's 1 in 20, or more than 1 in 20. Look at your community - your family - and imagine what it would look like with 1 in 20 people dead. Now add in multiple people with serious injuries such as traumatic amputations, enucleation, burns. Now add in that all the people left alive who need medication for underlying health conditions can't get that medication, so they're facing deteriorating health, pain, reduced life expectancy. Now add in that none of you can stay at home and you have to flee to unsuitable areas where there's little shelter, raw sewage and worse. Now add in that while you're doing that, people are still shooting at you, bombing you and running you over with large vehicles. Now add in that you struggle to find any food or water. At this point, you have a snapshot of what is happening to communities in Gaza. That's not even considering previous traumas or the situations elsewhere, or the psychological damage being deliberately inflicted upon people.

The majority of people in Gaza did not choose Hamas. Yet they have been condemned to death and suffering despite that. If the world actually wants to help Palestinians, it needs to act like it.

International laws are meant to apply internationally. So yes, they do apply to Israel. And no, self-defence is not generally considered to extend to allowing the commission of war crimes.

Dear Scirocco,

Thank you for conversing with me. I don't mean to argue but do you mind if I dispute some of what you said. I'm backing everything up with references ...

"The majority of people in Gaza did not choose Hamas. Yet they have been condemned to death and suffering despite that. If the world actually wants to help Palestinians, it needs to act like it."
Wrong. It's a fact that the people in Gaza voted for Hamas. They are terrorists. This was a stupid thing to do and stupid things have consequences. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

"And anyone who at this point dismisses the civilian deaths in Gaza as simply 'collateral' must be well aware of how heartless that is"
you seem to be saying I am heartless? I'm looking at ways to stop the war. War is heartless. It should be a last resort. After diplomacy. Civilians usually bear the brunt. We all need to be mindful about starting wars or encouraging them or glorifying war / terrorism. Every war has massive collateral damage aka civilian suffering. My view ... stop wars - more talking and more listening.

"...generally speaking, freeing innocent people is not achieved by committing war crimes against them or killing large numbers of them"
Wrong. Generally speaking ... (unfortunately but factually) freeing countries is usually achieved by killing large numbers of them. Hiroshima, Nakasaki, Dresden, Hamburg. WW1 was the biggest cause of civilian deaths the world has ever experienced. Not condoning this - just stating the sad reality of war. Freedom of Kuwait, regime change in Iraq, Bosnia, Argentina (Falklands) also were achieved after killing large numbers of people. It would be hypocritical to ignore our actions previously.

In 2023, more than half of Gaza's estimated 2.06 million inhabitants were below 20 years old.

Most people alive in Gaza in 2023 were not old enough to have voted in the 2006 election. A significant number weren't even conceived. Following the 2006 election, Hamas cemented power and prevented people removing them politically or militarily. The people who voted for Hamas in 2006 made a terrible, terrible decision. The majority of people who were alive in Gaza in 2023 did not vote in that election and had little opportunity to change who was in charge.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1423040/gaza-age-structure-of-population/

When people dropped nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or bombed Dresden and other cities, they didn't bring freedom to the people of those places. They brought death.

The freedom that was celebrated was for other people, not the people in those targeted areas.

Over 70 million tons of ordnance has been used to bomb Gaza, which is the size of Detroit. That isn't being done to save people there or bring them freedom; it's being done to kill them. There is no other reason to drop that amount of ordnance on a small area.

The law of right to self defence is the actual law enabling Israel to conduct the war as they are. It's why the UK, USA, Europe are assisting them. Israel breaking this law - I don't know it is a bit grey. Bending it? yes i think so.
The trouble with this argument is that it totally ignores the fact that the Israeli government has deliberately contravene the rules of war, rules they have signed up to.
It isn't a grey area and they are not bending them. They are using unlawful methods in the name of self-defence ( Not allowing humanitarian aid in/ use of phosphorus bombs, indiscriminate bombings and so on).
It's why the UK, USA, Europe are assisting them.
Sorry but it is about geopolitics.

are we getting some consensus here today between you me UN, UK, USA, Arab States (other than Iran) and even Israel? Remove Hamas to achieve peace.

In general terms, I consider it pretty heartless and lacking in compassion for people outside of operational/strategic settings to use such terms as "collateral" to describe people who have died in Palestine, Lebanon, Israel or any other country affected by conflict. There are posters on this site, for example, who have lost loved ones in these countries. It can be upsetting for people to read such dismissive terms being used about their own losses, and this has repeatedly been explained - nevertheless, people continue to do it.

Removing Hamas will not, in itself, achieve peace. The dismantling of Hamas is a necessary and important part of steps towards peace, but is not sufficient in itself. As has been said again and again and again. Hamas are a proscribed terrorist organisation which carried out appalling attacks. That does not mean Israel has the right to commit war crimes to destroy Gaza, or Lebanon, or anywhere else.

People aren't doing this to free Palestinians in Gaza. If they'd cared about Palestinians in Gaza they would have acted to remove Hamas long ago.

Auvergne,

Law is set by precedents. How do you see the UK Firebombing of Dresden and Hamburg. The allied destruction of Hiroshima with an A bomb? All indiscriminate targeting of civilian centres. Blockades also prevented food and aid reaching civilians.

These events have been accepted as bad but necessary events within the laws of war. And they have to some extent set the precedent here.

Scirroco, How would anyone remove Hamas? Without putting USA / UK boots on the ground? Egypt, Gazas closest neigbour is terrified of them. Lebenon together with UN support has been trying to get rid of very similar Hezbollah for decades with no success.

I think the world is secretly holding out for regime change to come from within Gaza itself.

If those bombs hadn't been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki men like my father (a Japanese POW brutalised for over 4 years) would have died alongside all other POWs
The Allies bombed Dresden to pieces causing huge loss of civilian life before the war with Germany could come to an end. Dresden was the city where my mother was born and from where my grandmother was sent to a concentration camp.
Thank G-d the Germans and Japanese were finally defeated. I can only hope that Hamas and Hezbollah (aka Iranian proxies) are also defeated and Israelis and Palestinians can one day live in peace as we all do with Germany and Japan.

The UN peacekeeping force has been anything but as Hezbollah constantly fired rockets into northern Israel.

If those bombs hadn't been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki men like my father (a Japanese POW brutalised for over 4 years) would have died alongside all other POWs
So to save them 200,000 innocent civilians had to die? Why were their lives worth so much less? I'm sorry I don't get this argument to justify the atomic bomb.

International Humanitarian laws were established after these events to protect ALL innocent civilians not just those on the winning side.

It’s all down to geopolitics.
There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the atomic bombs dropped on Japan in 1945 were less about defeating Japan (which was already on its way to being defeated) and more about showing the USSR, which after VE Day was becoming increasingly more difficult for the USA to work with, that the USA had an atomic bomb.

These events have been accepted as bad but necessary events within the laws of war
These events are not now within the laws of war.

I think you need to read up on the Geneva convention and its 1949 and 1977 protocols.
The 1949 protocol was put in place following WW2, following the events you mention in order to make sure that they could never be repeated.
If they happened today, they would be classified as war crimes. I view them as such.

It's shocking to me that some people seem to justify what Israel's far right government are doing to innocent Palestinian civilians on the grounds of Hamas and October 7th. I think we all agree that Hamas' actions on October 7th were completely horrific. That goes without saying. But, Israel is clearly using it as an excuse to try and wipe out an entire population. It's just so obvious at this point. They're deliberately targeting innocents.
Imagine the outcry if the UK government had responded to IRA attacks by carpet bombing all of civilian Ireland? The UK government's been bad enough over the years, but thankfully didn't sink to those depths.
I feel Israel and its allies, and much of our own media is gaslighting us at this point - I'm horrified by what's going on, completely shocked, and they keep trying to tell us it's normal behaviour from Israel!? It's not normal, it's utterly insane!

What outcome would you have preferred?

Im just not sure why you think a long protracted war in the far east - rumbling on for years - would be preferable?

There is no “good” way to end a war .

Are you suggesting it was an either or? It clearly wasn't. The war may have lasted longer but the allies were on track to win. 200,000 innocent civilians died in the most horrific way possible that is never justified. They were not combatants like the POW were. It was an ugly horrible war which led to the Geneva convention and thankfully we have not seen anything like it on its scale again. It does scare me though that countries still have atomic bombs even more powerful that could wipe us all out with the touch of a button.

Out of curiosity would people here who feel dropping the atomic bomb in Japan was in some way justified feel the same if it was used again? What would be the scenario now that you think it could be used? Israel/ Gaza has been rumbling on for decades would the atomic bomb on Gaza solve it and end it quickly?

I'm with this year's nobel peace prize winners this year

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Nobel_Peace_Prize#:~:text=The%202024%20Nobel%20Peace%20Prize%20was%20awarded%20to%20Nihon%20Hidanky%C5%8D,must%20never%20be%20used%20again%22.