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Conflict in the Middle East

Hamas leader Sinwar dead

381 replies

Toomanywars · 17/10/2024 13:53

Reported just on Sky

OP posts:
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7
Fescue · 19/10/2024 22:58

I am not clear that my deleted post did break guidelines now I have read them.

Let's be clear, the Iranian regime is hell bent on genocide, does not give a damn about Palestinians and suppresses the men and women of Iran on a daily basis - especially if they are educated.

Daftasabroom · 19/10/2024 23:03

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 19/10/2024 17:53

The drone video released by the IDF of his last minutes and the details of the autopsy have no doubt fuelled the hero fire.

  • The drone video showed that he was alone and wounded in a combat zone- not a humanitarian zone or under a hospital or in a UN school or surrounded by hostages or Gazan women & children as human shields.
  • The tank shell hitting the building he was in, did not kill him.
  • Although gravely wounded, the cause of death was a bullet to the head.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/sinwar-died-of-gunshot-to-head-says-doctor-who-oversaw-autopsy/

It is a PR fumble to have released this information as it will only strengthen Hamas.

Edited

Does this reinforce the idea that Netanyahu really doesn't care what anyone outside of Israel thinks?

Scirocco · 19/10/2024 23:09

Fescue · 19/10/2024 22:46

Thank you. He's the guy I watched the other day speaking at a conference. Should put his name on the cover really.

He's an interesting man, and went through some awful things. We have very different perspectives on some key things, but I do feel for him. Nobody should have to go through what he went through; coming through alive and building a new life shows real strength and determination on his part.

Kindatired · 20/10/2024 09:48

Does this reinforce the idea that Netanyahu really doesn't care what anyone outside of Israel thinks?
Yes.
I think we are going to see an intensification of the destruction and aid blockade between now and the US elections. It’s already escalating by the day and the Israeli right has become daily more brazen in the last couple of weeks in revealing plans to starve and resettle Gaza.

Harris is struggling and the Biden administration is spinning the Israeli tactical successes as joint success. For instance, has disclosed that rather than a random encounter, the execution of Sinwar was supported for months by high level high tech intelligence by CIA operatives that were actually secretly deployed in Israel. The Harris Biden administration is under pressure to bolster support from the powerful pro-Israeli lobby because this powerful lobby has the ability to pivot the election outcome quite quickly using smears and social media interventions.This gives Netanyahu a window of opportunity to run amok unreined and he is seizing his opportunity.

Netanyahu wants to send a message to Iran that it’s not worth attacking Israel. If he can’t prove to his own people that Israel is safer than anywhere else for Jewish people, this poses an existential threat to Israel- only religious extremists will want to remain in the country and the country would eventually be no different to any other low/midddle income country in the region. As such, it would be in even less of a position to defend itself and because it’s the intelligentsia and wealthy that has forged and maintained the strong bonds with the US.

He doesn’t care that much what the West thinks of his plans and has an elaborate propaganda engine to muddy the waters to mitigate its effects. Social media is really helpful- babies in ovens, UNWRA teachers turned terrorist bodyguards etc etc um-schmum to the UN, aggregate news sides

https://www.aipacpac.org/2024election

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Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 10:22

@Kindatired thank you. It certainly feels like the world is stumbling along the edge of a precipice.

PeasfullPerson · 20/10/2024 11:18

Just over two weeks to go.

statsfun · 20/10/2024 11:44

Daftasabroom · 19/10/2024 16:25

Israel as a nation is born from Zionist terrorism of the late 19thc and early 20thc, of western imperialism and post war settlements (x2), on colonisation, and ethnic cleansing.

Dragging Germany into any discussion on the establishment of Israel is very very dodgy ground.

Suggesting the Palestinians should willingly accept the death and destruction wrought on them by Israel is obscene.

And you know it.

Edited

No, it wasn't. But people who can't be bothered learning about the region's history from unbiased sources and prefer emotive soundbites often seem to believe that.

It's not at all 'dodgy' or irrelevant to use examples from history to compare how different countries have responded to wars they have started and lost, the suffering of their civilian populations, and which approach has resulted in the best outcomes for their people.

I have suggested that the Palestinian leaders and fighters should stop terrorism and aggression towards Israel. That regardless of what Israel do or don't do - should or shouldn't do - that is their best option to achieve a positive future for Palestinian people.

That's not obscene.

What I consider obscene is to encourage the Palestinians to continue down a path which only leads to more harm for them.

To suggest that they can't make a different choice - even now when the power of Hamas has been broken - is insulting and harmful.

Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 11:49

@statsfun I have suggested that the Palestinian leaders and fighters should stop terrorism and aggression towards Israel.

Israel should stop terrorism saturation bombing and aggression genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank etc.

42,000 dead with absolutely zero sign of let up is obscene.

The biggest difference any single actor can make right now, this instant to the lives of all those in the ME is so screamingly obvious.

Newbutoldfather · 20/10/2024 11:51

@Kindatired ,

‘I think we are going to see an intensification of the destruction and aid blockade between now and the US elections. It’s already escalating by the day and the Israeli right has become daily more brazen in the last couple of weeks in revealing plans to starve and resettle Gaza.’

I don’t really buy this. Israel won’t ignore Biden’s letter. They have already opened crossings for food. Netanyahu isn’t afraid of making things, such as the Lebanon invasion, a fait accompli, but he won’t countermand a direct threat from the U.S.

‘Harris is struggling and the Biden administration is spinning the Israeli tactical successes as joint success. For instance, has disclosed that rather than a random encounter, the execution of Sinwar was supported for months by high level high tech intelligence by CIA operatives that were actually secretly deployed in Israel. The Harris Biden administration is under pressure to bolster support from the powerful pro-Israeli lobby because this powerful lobby has the ability to pivot the election outcome quite quickly using smears and social media interventions.This gives Netanyahu a window of opportunity to run amok unreined and he is seizing his opportunity.’

I really doubt the pro Israel lobby has the power to ‘pivot’ the election outcome. How would they do this? Both sides of the debate can use smears and social media.

‘Netanyahu wants to send a message to Iran that it’s not worth attacking Israel. If he can’t prove to his own people that Israel is safer than anywhere else for Jewish people, this poses an existential threat to Israel- only religious extremists will want to remain in the country and the country would eventually be no different to any other low/midddle income country in the region. As such, it would be in even less of a position to defend itself and because it’s the intelligentsia and wealthy that has forged and maintained the strong bonds with the US.’

I partially agree with this. I don’t believe many Jews would feel safer in Israel than the U.S, say. I can’t really see that changing. I do agree, however, that Israel is pivoting dangerously to the right and becoming more religious. It still hasn’t tipped into a theocracy, but there are dangers it will, and a nuclear armed theocracy is a pretty terrifying idea (one of Israel’s right wing politicians did moot nuking Gaza, which shows him as equally terrifying and thick, given the fallout).

I do think that there is a bit of a misunderstanding as to why the U.S backs Israel almost regardless of what they do. It is the biggest static aircraft carrier that the U.S has in an unstable region full of hydrocarbons, and a nuclear armed ally. I don’t think it is about Israel being democratic or similarly religious to the U.S (unlike in Europe, the U.S see Judaism and Christianity as pretty much the same).

Finally, Israel is a key part of the global high tech chip supply chain. This is currently the single most important industry in the world. The U.S would take a massive hit, both militarily and economically, if Israel’s chip fabrication plants were taken out. I suspect that is, as much as anything else, why the U.S is prepared to defend Israeli soil with its systems and men.

statsfun · 20/10/2024 12:07

Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 11:49

@statsfun I have suggested that the Palestinian leaders and fighters should stop terrorism and aggression towards Israel.

Israel should stop terrorism saturation bombing and aggression genocide and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank etc.

42,000 dead with absolutely zero sign of let up is obscene.

The biggest difference any single actor can make right now, this instant to the lives of all those in the ME is so screamingly obvious.

Edited

You don't have control over 'any single actor'.

Neither do the Palestinian leadership and fighters.

What they do have control over is their own actions.

SharonEllis · 20/10/2024 12:19

@Newbutoldfather 'I really doubt the pro Israel lobby has the power to ‘pivot’ the election outcome. How would they do this? Both sides of the debate can use smears and social media.'

Completely agree. Aipac supports both republicans and democrats. I think there are a lot of misunderstandings. For a start the jewish population in the US is around 2-2.5% of the US pooulation and many Jewish people don't even support aipac which has moved rightwards while Jewish people in America remain pretty liberal. The idea they can swing anything other than a small number of individual constitiencies is hardly realistic. Generally the US population has been pro-Israeli so if you want to succeed in US politics you are generally broadly Israeli. And aipac is not the only powerful PAC and they are all spending money on attack ads etc. I read recently that some Democrat candidates actually received a boost in raising money because they were NOT aipac endorsed. A lot of its influence comes in government & networking rather than actually swinging elections. They will work with whoever is in government.

Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 12:40

statsfun · 20/10/2024 12:07

You don't have control over 'any single actor'.

Neither do the Palestinian leadership and fighters.

What they do have control over is their own actions.

An "actor" usually refers to a stakeholder or someone or something involved. It doesn't necessarily refer to a single person, in fact rarely does so.

The actor in this instance is obviously Israel.

Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 12:43

@SharonEllis you know full well it's not the % of the population that counts but the % of party funding.

Kindatired · 20/10/2024 12:45

I really doubt the pro Israel lobby has the power to ‘pivot’ the election outcome. How would they do this?
@Newbutoldfather and@SharonEllis I never ever thought that the Pro-Israeli lobby had the power that it does until recently. It’s pretty complex- good judgement and a lot of money account for the sucesss of the candidates they back. AIPAC doesn’t back losers that couldn’t win elections- it usually backs good candidates with decent policies but only if they have a sufficiently pro- Israel bias. Smear tactics and attack ads are pretty normal in US politics but when you add Miriam Adel-son and the AIPAc superpac into the mix with such a close contest, Harris/Biden are treading on a wobbly tightrope. It’s a first pass the post system- winner takes all in a few swing states.

Chips can be made in much safer places that are not engaged in ethnic cleansing. Americans would prefer to make their own chips. Also the Israeli ingenuity is exceptional but there’s a pit of a whiff about the Israeli IT sector- Pegasus spyware, booby trapped pagers, the tech and defence industries are closely aligned and there will be other options . Yes, in the short term chip supply is an issue but both parties want to reduce US dependancy on imports and diversify supply chains of critical supplies, like chips, if fluids, drugs.

The US is self sufficient in fossil fuels. The EU not yet. Oil price stability is important for the world economy but we’re years into the Ukraine war and there hasn’t been a 1970s crisis.

statsfun · 20/10/2024 12:48

@Daftasabroom - whilst it may be 'screamingly obvious' that Israel stopping the war would make the most difference to the most lives in the ME 'this instant' - ie today and this week - it's far less obvious what the consequences would be in the medium to long term. Especially for Israeli citizens.

It's not obvious at all which actions from the Israeli leadership would lead to the best outcome for Israeli civilians in the medium to long term. It depends far too heavily on how other actors would react, which absolutely isn't clear. That's why there are different opinions within Israel and within the Israeli leadership - who for all their failings, do prioritise the future of their people. The current leadership have made a judgement call: to continue the war to completely destroy Hamas - believing that action to have the highest probability of a positive future for Israeli civilians.

However it is far, far clearer what actions from the Palestinian leadership would lead to the best outcome for Palestinian civilians in the short, medium and long term. There is no chance that continuing terrorism and aggression towards Israel will lead to better outcomes for Palestinians. None. That is why the Palestinian leadership and fighters should make that choice, if they prioritise the future of their people.

Newbutoldfather · 20/10/2024 13:15

@Kindatired ,

‘Chips can be made in much safer places that are not engaged in ethnic cleansing. Americans would prefer to make their own chips. Also the Israeli ingenuity is exceptional but there’s a pit of a whiff about the Israeli IT sector- Pegasus spyware, booby trapped pagers, the tech and defence industries are closely aligned and there will be other options . Yes, in the short term chip supply is an issue but both parties want to reduce US dependancy on imports and diversify supply chains of critical supplies, like chips, if fluids, drugs.’

Chips don’t work like that I am afraid. That is why China still lags years behind the U.S.

A chip fab costs at least $20 bio. Aside from the cost, they need specialist machines and, most importantly, expertise. Barriers to entry are huge. According to a quick Google, Israel has about 1/12 of the entire world’s chip design talent.

You just can’t easily move that (if at all).

statsfun · 20/10/2024 13:31

Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 12:40

An "actor" usually refers to a stakeholder or someone or something involved. It doesn't necessarily refer to a single person, in fact rarely does so.

The actor in this instance is obviously Israel.

You misunderstand me.

I'm saying that there's no point in declaring what the best solution would be as if you could make decisions for everyone. Sure, it would be easier to solve that way - but that isn't the reality for anyone.

The Israeli government doesn't control what the Palestinian leadership do.

The Palestinian leadership don't control what the Israeli government do.

The UK and US government don't control what the Israeli government, the Palestinian leadership, Hezbollah or the Iranian leadership do.

Each actor can only control what they themselves do - and try to judge what others might to do in response - and how likely each response is - and from that what the different outcomes might be.

SharonEllis · 20/10/2024 13:42

Daftasabroom · 20/10/2024 12:43

@SharonEllis you know full well it's not the % of the population that counts but the % of party funding.

It was in a list of a variety of factors.

Kindatired · 20/10/2024 13:45

@Newbutoldfather
You make a good point but Israel isn’t sitting over some natural resource. And if the tech industry falters, the tax base will go with it. The world is watching people being burned alive and children being shot in the head. The EU-Israel trade agreement is on next months EU foreign affairs committee agenda and for a lot of Europeans, Israeli goods are as popular as blood diamonds.

Chowtime · 20/10/2024 13:57

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SharonEllis · 20/10/2024 14:11

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Nasty & uncalled for to imply people here gave donations to Hamas.

Chowtime · 20/10/2024 14:14

Yeah, you don't like my post much do you @SharonEllis ?

GhostCicada · 20/10/2024 14:17

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Donations are used to give education to 300,000 students every year, allowing them to have a literacy rate of 99% and go on to further education. Donations are used to fund health centres that provide vital services for one million people. They provide psychological help in schools for the children who have lived through multiple Israeli bombardments. They allow food assistance to be given to over 1 million people. They provide livelihood opportunities to help Palestinians help themselves in the future. They provide social services. They provide shelter.

Don't downplay the importance of donations and the positive impact they have had on the lives of so many Palestinians who have been living under Israeli blockade that has severely impacted daily life and restricted their human rights.

1dayatatime · 20/10/2024 19:36

@Kindatired

"The EU-Israel trade agreement is on next months EU foreign affairs committee agenda and for a lot of Europeans, Israeli goods are as popular as blood diamonds."

95% of the world's solar panels are made using components from Uighur Muslim slave labour camps in China and the EU doesn't seem to give a crap about that.

Of course other factors may be included as to why Israel should be punished and not China.

www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2022/08/Clean-dirty-energy-1.pdf

SharonEllis · 20/10/2024 19:49

1dayatatime · 20/10/2024 19:36

@Kindatired

"The EU-Israel trade agreement is on next months EU foreign affairs committee agenda and for a lot of Europeans, Israeli goods are as popular as blood diamonds."

95% of the world's solar panels are made using components from Uighur Muslim slave labour camps in China and the EU doesn't seem to give a crap about that.

Of course other factors may be included as to why Israel should be punished and not China.

www.unison.org.uk/content/uploads/2022/08/Clean-dirty-energy-1.pdf

Thank you for posting, that's appalling, I didn't know that about solar panels.

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