Hamas leader Sinwar dead

[Toomanywars]

Reported just on Sky

That's not the point she's making is it. Wow the wilful misunderstanding.

I agree but that's not my point and you know it.

What then was the point you were trying to make with: "He alone is the one to address your anger to when the term 'collateral damage' is used, not MN posters." ?

Generally speaking, I think anyone using such callous and dismissive language outside of an operational plan/analysis should be criticised, including people posting on parenting forums.

People post dismissively on this site, using this language to minimise the suffering of innocent people and to hurt those of us who actually care and have loved ones in the region - the same language used by a terrorist and mass murderer. People should expect better from each other and themselves. And if people are going to insist on continuing to use such language, knowing who else uses it and the harm it causes... well, that says a lot about them.

The 'cards' are offers of international support in negotiations with Israel, eventually leading to a an independent state for the Palestinians alongside Israel. Also money and support to rebuild. And finally, amnesty and personal pay-off for individuals who hand over the hostages and give up terrorism.

These have been offered before, but refused by Palestinian leaders and fighters who care more about destroying Israel than about the wellbeing and future of their people. The hope is that new strongmen, new leaders will make a different choice. With the powerful stranglehold of Hamas so diminished, they may feel able to make that choice to work towards a future alongside Israel, where the personal cost was previously too high.

It’s probably also hard to seek retribution when you started the war as clearly the case with Germany in WW2. And Japan for entering and bombinh Pearl Harbour.

I think regarding the Sinwar in tunnels thing - he was at different points as he moved around and in other countries. There are verified pictures of him in different places including tunnels. Yeah he was found ‘out in the open’ when he was killed but he wasn’t there the whole time.

Nobody has justified the killing of Israeli civilians but you clearly seem to think killing Palestinian civilians is okay.

I've heard & seen 7/10 described as 'resistance' , or 'remedy', on this board. The rocket attacks, suicide bombs, stabbings, shootings, kidnappings and mutilations of Israeli citizens (worldwide) since Arafat started the PLO are largely ignored or somehow justified.

In the UK I have heard and challenged openly antisemitic rhetoric for as long as I can remember and I'm in my 50's.

I see clueless teenagers emboldened in this discrimination because they've been fed some one-sided guff online or in life.

All I can pray for is that the horror of this situation propels people to seek a peaceful compromise and better leaders and that Israeli hostages are returned.

And the Arab nations in 1948, following the civil war of 1947.

Unfortunately, self-serving ME regimes - and now well-meaning Westerners - keep telling the Palestinians that none of it is their fault, that they are entirely the victims, and that 'justice' should prevail in them eventually getting the whole of the area 'from the river to the sea' entirely for themselves.

If Germany had had rich countries telling them that they were the victims in 1945, and offering them weapons, they might have acted differently.

Whose descendants are better off now? The Germans (who had 12 million civilians displaced and 1 million deaths during the civilian population flight after WWII). Or the Palestinians, (who had 700,000 displaced at the same time - roughly the same number of Jews being displaced from other ME countries - so a fairly symmetrical displacement, unlike Germany).

History as well as current understanding tells us that the best future for the Palestinians would be for their leaders and fighters to turn away from terrorism.

@Westofeasttoday

"It’s probably also hard to seek retribution when you started the war as clearly the case with Germany in WW2. And Japan for entering and bombinh Pearl Harbour"

That's a really good point and I hadn't thought of it that way. It's a bit like if I start a fight with a professional boxer and she gives a black eye etc then it's harder to claim victim status and seek retribution, given that I started the fight.

But in the case of Germany and Japan what I think would have changed the sense of victimhood and then on to desire for retribution was if there were widespread protests in the Allied countries and those countries about the ethnic cleansing of Germans after the war, or how German and Japanese lands were being occupied by the Allies or how the atomic bombs were war crimes etc.

If that had occurred then I think we would have again seen a resurgent nationalist and militarist Germany and Japan seeking retribution for their "post war victimisation" by the cruel Allies.

@EasterIssland

"So many innocent lives have been taken away because we’ve made to believe that they were hidden in tunnels. And the reality is far from that. Sinwar has died alone in a building. "

Because prior to dying Sinwar moved around a lot to including the tunnels, yes at the point of his death he was in that building or are you suggesting that he spent the last 12 months sat in that red armchair in that building?

Oh and for the record he wasn't killed by chemical weapons either, before it's suggested otherwise.

@statsfun

"History as well as current understanding tells us that the best future for the Palestinians would be for their leaders and fighters to turn away from terrorism."

But that will not happen when you have Iran and its proxies supplying them with arms and many well meaning protesters in the West telling the Palestinians that they are victims.

'Victim' is probably an applicable word to use when considering a population suffering forcible displacement, ethnic cleansing, mass murder, imprisonment without charge, torture, sexual assault and rape, traumatic amputation, being burned alive, etc.

Palestinians are currently and have previously been victims of these things and more, perpetrated by Israeli forces and 'settlers', with the knowledge and support of the government. Denial of that is equivalent to complicity.

im suggesting that he might have not spent the last 12 months underground. There is 0 proof of this.

What there is proof of is all those innocent civilians that have been killed before 7-10. After 7-10 and after sinwars death despite most of the world calling for a stop for this war and indiscriminate killings

As were the German civilians who suffered after WWII.

Their best future still comes from turning away from terrorism.

Well said. I had a long post typed out but I cannot be bothered. Some people will never acknowledge the wrong doings of Israel, that's part of why this has been going on for so long. The idea that Palestinians aren't the perfect victims so it's OK to ignore and downplay their suffering because it benefits someone else.

Passion Vs perspective.

Controlling actors always target the young first, injustice is a powerful motivator and so easily subjective. If you throw in a bit of religious fervour too you can really stir things up.
Most people who have survived conflict want it to stop.

Exactly. Germany lost territories after World War II and plenty of Germans where forcibly displaced:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany

Why do some people keep ignoring it?

Speculating about events which happened 80 years through the lens of today is quite misplaced for so many reasons. It is also flawed.
Germany did extremely well after the war economically, thanks to the Marshall plan. The Allies had learnt their lessons after WW1 and understood their mistakes, enough not to repeat them.
Finally, you do know that the UN was created in 1945 to make sure the horrors of WW2 could never be repeated? Same for the Geneva convention?

If the aim of Netanyahu’s attacks on Gaza have been revenge and Sinwar’s death, then he has achieved that.

If the aim has been safety, security and peace, then he has failed.

I hope that Sinwar’s death provides some sense of justice to the families of his victims, but it won’t bring back the dead, it doesn’t look like it will help to bring the hostages home, and innocent children continue to be buried alive in Gaza.

Why are people banging on about WW1 and WW2 again, with no insight into the differences between then and now, and focusing on how injustice is used to recruit people.

Why don’t they focus on the ACTUAL PRESENT and the ACTUAL INJUSTICES that are happening right now!

@Auvergne63

"Speculating about events which happened 80 years through the lens of today is quite misplaced for so many reasons. It is also flawed.
Germany did extremely well after the war economically, thanks to the Marshall plan. The Allies had learnt their lessons after WW1 and understood their mistakes, enough not to repeat them.
Finally, you do know that the UN was created in 1945 to make sure the horrors of WW2 could never be repeated? Same for the Geneva convention?"

My thoughts about events of 80 years ago may indeed be flawed or misplaced but you have to substantiate your opinion of why this is so , rather than just state they are wrong. Otherwise the debate descends in to playground arguments of "you're wrong " no you're wrong " no actually you're wrong " etc.

Germany may have fared well economically after the war but they suffered enormous hardship and suffering and persecution. Yet they realised that future prosperity and peace lay in economic growth and not perpetuating a circle of violence. There was also a recognition / re education by the majority that the actions of the Nazi regime were heinous. The Marshall plan was only part of this.

Lastly the Geneva Convention was not so much created in 1949 but rather expanded on and codified previous agreements such as The Hague Convention. Equally the UN which was indeed created in 1945 was intended to replace the ineffective League of Nations and with the objective of preventing future conflicts.

Why are people banging on about WW1 and WW2 again, with no insight into the differences between then and now, and focusing on how injustice is used to recruit people. Because those of us whose parents and grandparents fought and died to eradicate evil then remember history and will continue to 'bang on' about it so that people today learn from it.
I recommend a new documentary on BBC2 A House Through Time - Two Cities at War as lived by people in London and Berlin, featuring the excellent David Olusoga. It's eye opening about the effect of war on everyday people. We can all learn from his research.

@PeasfullPerson

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Those that cannot remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes "

George Santayana

Your argument is flawed because the UK was different culturally, economically and politically back then. Societies evolve through times or they should. It is fair to say the UK today is not the UK of 1945. That's why I find your argument flawed.
Yet they realised that future prosperity and peace lay in economic growth and not perpetuating a circle of violence.
They were able to realise this because the Marshall plan created stable conditions in which democratic institutions could survive. Germany wasn't the only country in Europe who benefitted from this.

Those who cannot understand differences between times and context will be unable to judge the appropriateness and application of lessons learned!

Some elements of history are repeating right now.

Nobody could deny that Palestine should turn away from terrorism, but that is also true of the government of Israel. In order for Palestine to turn away from this they need freedom and dignity, and in order for Israel to turn away from this they need to feel safe, and until both can offer each other these things and take a leap of faith it won’t happen.