Offer made to Israel

[mouthpipette]

Lyse Doucet (From our own correspondent, BBC R4, 6/10) reported that last week the Jordanian foreign minister said,

"57 Arab and Muslim countries will, right now, guarantee the security of Israel if Israel ends the occupation and agrees to an independent Palestinian state. "

That's a pretty good offer and I find it interesting that it hasn't been more widely publicised.

Might have been useful if they'd been so supportive the many, many times Israel offered a two-state solution and the recognition of the Palestinian state. Why are they suddenly so keen now? And have they even checked with the Palestians that they want it - they have after all always refused it in the past, and many of their supporters still refuse it now. Don't really understand why anyone would blame Netanyahu?! Also don't really understand why anyone would blame Netanyahu for not believing this 'offer' to be either reliable or made in good faith.

Arab Israelis have identical rights with Jewish Israelis, rights that are guaranteed by law

Re: life for Palestinian Israeli Arabs in Israel and ‘residents’ in East Jerusalem - this gives a more nuanced description.
www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel

Here is a racially slanted against Palestinian /Arab Israeli sex crime law
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-sex-crime-law-jews-lesser-punishment-condemned

There is a dual system of laws for Palestinians and Arabs in the West Bank.

Law is not enforced when settlers commit crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank.

Israels control of land, waters and borders in Gaza imposes embargoes on goods entering and leaving,

@rumblegrumble
Might have been useful if they'd been so supportive the many, many times Israel offered a two-state solution and the recognition of the Palestinian state. ( It would indeed have been useful, but we are where we are now. Using the failings of both parties yesterday as an excuse for not engaging in peaceful solutions today, means that the conflict will go on and on and on.) Why are they suddenly so keen now? ( (Perhaps because the levels of misery, death and destruction is higher now than it has ever been in the past) And have they even checked with the Palestians that they want it - they have after all always refused it in the past, (Remember that the Israelis played a major part in previous failures of agreements) and many of their supporters still refuse it now. (Are you sure of that?) Don't really understand why anyone would blame Netanyahu?! (Not sure what you mean by this) Also don't really understand why anyone would blame Netanyahu for not believing this 'offer' to be either reliable or made in good faith. Well, there's only one way to find out whether or not it's in good faith and that is to explore the possibility.

It's depressing that posters can still be so convinced that Netanyahu getting the "job done" his way, is the only way through this.

There were fair reasons for refusal in some cases.

It is a shame an Israeli ultra nationalist murdered the Israeli leader Rabin because of not agreeing with his policies or everything might have been better by now.

Having a government effectively ruled by a powerful core of ultra nationalist extremists now is not helping either, as the Jordanian minister made clear. They do not want a two state solution.

It might have been worthwhile for Netanyahu to listen to the Jordanian spokesman and see if if there is a way forward to a better future for Palestine and Israel now

No idea, but whatever it may have been, if anything at all, didn't work.

Is Iran involved? They only want the destruction of Israel so will be interesting 😏 it sounds like empty sound. No one so far appears to be able to get Iran to do anything for their own people let alone for a people that they hate.

There are? Can you name one?

"The kind of occupation and massive bombardment" in question is happening in a complete void is it?

Israel just decided to have a bit of fun and start bombing Arabs ?

Are you forgetting that your new peace brokering heroes, [the two-faced Jordanians] from1948-67, ruled the West Bank [I've yet to see any one of the islamists useful idiot friends rant about that particular occupation] and didn't lift a finger to create a Palestinian state; instead they sought Israel's destruction? The WB Arabs call themselves Jordanians not Palestinians [which is an Arafat confected myth] despite that, the Jordanians are happy to keep the "Palestinians" where they are, because that way they can blame Israel and deflect any criticism from themselves.

Rabin brought a terrible divisiveness to Israel. He split the nation into two groups that were further apart than ever before. At the time of his assassination he'd lost over 50% of the voters' support and was sinking fast. The assassination was an aberration, but to pervert the facts about Rabin is also bad. His relinquishing of Israeli territory only wet the appetite of Israel's fanatical jew-genocide-intent enemies.

I remind you, Israel pulled out of Sinai and eventually made peace with Egypt.

Israel pulled out of southern Lebanon only for it to be taken over Hizbullah, who are now one of the biggest armed terrorist forces in the region.

It also pulled out of Gaza in 2005 in order to give Palestinians their land, only to be met with three wars, endless rocket fire and 7th Oct.

Time and again, Israel's offered the Palestinians what they've demanded, and each time the Palestinian leaders have walked away. Palestinian TV, sermons, school textbooks, radio and more call for a single Palestine, eliminating Israel entirely (and either killing – Hamas – or deporting all Jews there – PLO).

And you people call the Israelis aggressors and land grabbers?

So you object to Israel doubling the punishment for nationalistically motivated rape and sexual assault? You'd like to see the rapists let off presumably with a promise not to do it again? Fortunately for Jewish and Arab Israeli women, the bill was passed in the Knesset 44-8, with many Arab members also voting in favour. The case of women being sexually harassed because of their religious identity had increased to the point that throughout the country women were afraid to go out in the evening. It's a source of upset for you that this was addressed, yes?

Israels control of land, waters and borders in Gaza imposes embargoes on goods entering and leaving,

Thousands of Palestinians are treated in Israeli hospitals, even those that have been injured attacking Israeli citizens, hasn't "Middle East Eye" or "Al jazeera" or Hamas' press office told you that? Palestinians are sent tons and tons of goods every single day into Gaza, ditto the Palestinians in the WB who are given water and jobs and hospital treatment by those nasty Israelis. Yes Israel has to keep a close eye on what goods go in. Guess why, because of the thousands of Israelis murdered since the 1920s by Palestinian Arabs, [the good guys in the warped mind of some people] using bombs, guns, knives, cars and more.

I will not be answering you
but will read links if you would like to post any.

This was regarding the question around the degree to which Palestinian Israelis, ‘resident’ Palestinians in occupied parts, and Palestinians in Gaza, are treated equally by Israeli laws and actual practices.
You had said:
Arab Israelis have identical rights with Jewish Israelis, rights that are guaranteed by law

“Rather than parroting Jeremy Corbyn-level nonsense, you should read some serious historical books and think carefully.”

Yes , like this one maybe ? Israeli historian drawing from primary sources.

Loot: How Israel Stole Palestinian Property Hardcover – 24 Sept. 2024
by Adam Raz (Author), Philip Hollander (Translator)

"The kind of occupation and massive bombardment"

Russia would be a candidate. But no, you're absolutely right, most developed nations are a under permanent microscope, as they should be. And you're right it really is only Israel mass civilian populations. Gosh I can't believe how tight you are, Israel is really setting an example.

@browserintobuyer thousands of Israelis murdered since the 1920s by Palestinian Arabs,

Up until 7/10 Israel had killed at least 10 Palestinians for every Israeli. You also forget that there was no Israel in the 1920s, so both sides would be terrorists and murderers.

Every stat you pull out purporting to demonstrate how evil the Palestinians are shows Israel in a worse light.

@browserintobuyer wrote,
"It (Israel) also pulled out of Gaza in 2005 in order to give Palestinians their land, ......."

If you firmly believe that, then you have been very badly misinformed. Israel pulled out of Gaza purely because of self interest. It was becoming increasingly expensive to maintain order and protect the settlements in Gaza. Israel looked at the demographics and decided it didn't want 1.5 million Gazans voting in Israel and it was known that a unilateral withdrawal would freeze the current Peace process. The wishes of those in Gaza didn't enter the calculations being made by the Israelis. These are just some of the threads in the fantastically tangled web of Middle Eastern politics. The simplistic view that Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 to "give the Palestinians their land" lacks all of the nuance of what actually happened and reveals a frighteningly simplistic view.
Most of the above is on Wiki if you want to check. Yes I use Wiki, why not ? I'm not ashamed, and I've done you the honour of paraphrasing some of the more relevant parts for you. I'm not expecting gratitude......... but it would be nice.

You accuse others of having a “frighteningly simplistic view”, yet you get your own information from Wikipedia?
Not that there’s anything wrong with it per se, but it’s just one single source.
Don’t you think it might be biased?
(Also, not sure what the point of paraphrasing is…)

@inamarina
You accuse others of having a “frighteningly simplistic view”, yet you get your own information from Wikipedia? Yep for some stuff Wiki is pretty good. I used to read the JC before it became the thing that is today. In fact I've just spent 10 minutes trying to pay to subscribe to Haaretz, friggin awful website and will only take dollars and then freezes. You woulda thought that they could have got their website sorted, but then what does Israel know about IT? But journalistically, Haaretz are (is?) brilliant. They are very brave and pretty fair.

(Back to Wiki)
Not that there’s anything wrong with it per se, but it’s just one single source.

Don’t you think it might be biased? ( It references its sources and if it were inaccurate or biased it would be contested. It's a long entry, a major topic and probably garners quite a viewing. I would pretty much trust it.

If it is biased, do you think Israel should take on Wiki as well ?

Also, not sure what the point of paraphrasing is…I paraphrased the relevant points from a very long article that included some big words to make it easier for all...... It was a nice gesture.... still awaiting thanks.

Re Israel withdrawing from Gaza:
Adam Shatz wrote:

When Ariel Sharon withdrew more than eight thousand Jewish settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005, his principal aim was to consolidate Israel’s colonisation of the West Bank, where the settler population immediately began to increase. But ‘disengagement’ had another purpose: to enable Israel’s air force to bomb Gaza at will, something they could not do when Israeli settlers lived there. The Palestinians of the West Bank have been, it seems, gruesomely lucky. They are encircled by settlers determined to steal their lands – and not at all hesitant about inflicting violence in the process – but the Jewish presence in their territory has spared them the mass bombardment and devastation to which Israel subjects the people of Gaza every few years.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v45/n21/adam-shatz/vengeful-pathologies

You want people to thank you for patronising them? Wow.....

@inamarina
And also, you spend all your time questioning the messenger (Wiki) and none to addressing the content of that message. Are you saying that the three major reasons given are figments of peoples imagination? Talk about the message. Please.

(Expecting tumbleweed)

Re subscribing to Haaretz, you can sign up to get daily news briefings without subscribing, though you only get a paragraph rather than the full article.

Sometimes however you can put the headline into archive ph and the whole article will have been archived. It is worth giving an important article a few days if it doesn’t appear in archive ph immediately as it may later. While reading an archived article you can also see links to others in archive form.

@ScrollingLeaves
Thanks for that.
I actually signed up mid October and have been getting their daily briefings ever since and reading whatever you can without the bottom half of the screen going fuzzy and grey. Just read an article about The Jordanian Foreign minister and felt guilty about getting all this good stuff for free, so went to either contribute something ( money wise not an article.... they couldn't afford me) or subscribe. Will give it another go later.

@SharonEllis
You want people to thank you for patronising them? Wow.....

I was only patronising some, but very well done for spotting that.

mouthpipette-Another website that you can archive and search for archived articles, is archive.is. Once archived, they can be read in full.

Who are you referring to by "you people" @browserintobuyer ? And is there some reason why you consider it necessary to put inverted commas around Palestinian? Can you also explain why you have neglected to mention relevant issues such as the reality of occupation in the West Bank, the reality of the blockade on Gaza, the recognised institutional biases against and disadvantaging of minority groups within Israel (these are an issue in many countries, but let's not pretend they don't exist in Israel too), the concerns about indoctrination of some Israeli children and young people as well, the sufficiently significant support among the population for far-right and anti-Palestinian groups that those groups now have elected representatives in government, the levels of support for the current conduct of the IDF and government as per polls conducted by Israeli organisations, and the rejection of ceasefire and hostage deals by the Israeli government? Oh, and you forgot to mention how many Palestinians have been killed by Israel over the same time period (to help you out, https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties includes searchable information from 2008 onwards, and there are studies indicating over 100,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israel over the decades of occupation and oppression).

It feels a bit like the 'peace accord' brokered by my history teacher between me and the school bully, (which I knew was bollox btw, but felt complled to go along with). We shook hands whilst she smirked.

Later that day she punched me in the face and spat on me whilst laughing.

It's got those kind of vibes.

There is an interesting programme about Netanyahu on Sky News at the moment.