Offer made to Israel

[mouthpipette]

Lyse Doucet (From our own correspondent, BBC R4, 6/10) reported that last week the Jordanian foreign minister said,

"57 Arab and Muslim countries will, right now, guarantee the security of Israel if Israel ends the occupation and agrees to an independent Palestinian state. "

That's a pretty good offer and I find it interesting that it hasn't been more widely publicised.

But it was founded on the ethnic cleansing of the existing population.

Back to square one. The Jewish people came from the Holy Land as you well know.

Which borders are talking about?

There's no such thing as the Holy Land as you well know.

Obviously no point in engaging but for anyone else who is still struggling with the idea that the Jewish people have a legitimate right to a state in this region (as do the Palestinians) please read this which is helpful www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

@SharonEllis would you agree that a two state solution is the only viable long term solution?

See post above.

@itsmabeline

"Are the 57 states offering to militarily force compliance"

From the speech there was no explanation of how this guarantee of security would be enforced and no mention of offering military force to enforce it.

So just words really.

@SharonEllis of course.

But where would the borders be? How would Israel account for the forced exodus of Palestinians in 1947 48? The 1967 occupation etc. Who should Israel negotiate with?

I think you maybe setting the scene for a permanent war if there isn't an acceptance of the existence of Israel as a state with boundaries at least set by the UN.

Many gulf states have reached peace with Israel (hence the op offer) so it is only those states and non state actors that act as a barrier to the eventually launch of a 2 state settlement.

We also have such a heightened sense of animosity between Palestinians and Israelis that a two state solution may look like a 'loss' for either side. Israel does not want to concede after tactical victories and Palestine can't now examine a 2 state solution after bearing a large civilian discomfort

It will take differing govenances of both Israel and Palestine to be in place before meaningful negotiations and also well defined security arrangements

No it wasn't.

@mids2019 1947 UN boundaries? There are something like 750,000 people living in the occupied territories.

How would you describe the Palestinian expulsions of 1947 and 1948?

As far as I'm aware deciding the boundaries of the states of Israel & Palestine is not in my job description - nor is it in yours. Strange how entitled people feel on this subject.

An attempt at Partition (not dissimilar to India and Pakistan) of an area which had a very tumultuous history - recently being part of a collapsed empire (the Ottoman empire) and then a British mandate - which failed and descended into civil war.

Followed by one of the partition states declaring itself a nation, and the other not.

It's an open discussion. I'm genuinely interested in what anyone thinks might be a solution that doesn't involve continued slaughter of Palestinians and terrorist attacks on Israel.

In my opinion the UN. UN broker peace, redraw boundaries and put peacekeepers on the ground. Israel pay reparations and rebuild Gaza and elections are held to form a new government.

The violence in the region up until 1947 pales by comparison of what has come since.

Which "occupation" are you claiming is illegal ?

There is no "Apartheid" in Israel, that's just antisemitic dogma you've picked up. Arab Israelis have identical rights with Jewish Israelis, rights that are guaranteed by law. Arabs serve in parliament, as judges (even on the Supreme Court), as diplomats, academics, scientists, gay rights activists, and on and on. Not one of those things was true for blacks in South Africa where there was actual apartheid. You're spreading patently false information and that really ought to worry you.

PS. If you really want to see actual Apartheid, go to any Arab controlled town by/PLO/HAMAS /Hizballah. You can witness that there are NO Jews and Christians are persecuted, expelled or even killed.

Israel did not force any exodus of Palestinians in 1947 48

The vast majority of 'Palestinians' who left during the 1947-48 wars did so on the express command of the Arab Higher Committee and the Arab Liberation Army, who wanted them out of the way when 5 Arab armies invaded Israel in 1948. Before that, the civil war of 1947, started entirely by the Palestinians themselves, prompted increasing numbers of their fellow countrymen to flee, first the rich, then the middle classes. All of this and more is well recorded in historical sources: it's a pity so many people get this the wrong way around. .

The reason the Pal's don't have a state is that they have rejected one every time they've been offered one by Israel. In 1947, they rejected a straight offer by the UN. In 2000, Arafat walked away from a deal with would've given the Palestinians 97% of what they wanted, and possibly 100%. There have been at least a dozen occasions when they have turned their backs, and for 65 years they have said they want all of the region, to expel or kill the Jews. 'No peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel' (Khartoum Declaration 1967).
'There is no solution except through Jihad' (Hamas Charter, 1989).

Rather than parroting Jeremy Corbyn-level nonsense, you should read some serious historical books and think carefully.

Given that neither Hamas or Hezbollah support a two state solution and neither does Israel support a two state solution whilst Hamas and Hezbollah are in existence then surely the solution is the removal or failing that the eradication of Hamas and Hezbollah with the minimal civilian casualties possible.

Now in a functioning democracy this could be done by the Palestinian and Lebanese voters but I think it would be fair to say that this is not possible plus a number of Palestinian and Lebanese actively support these organisations.

But for those Palestinians and Lebanese welcoming the removal of Hamas and Hezbollah maybe there is a solution in denying where possible assistance, food and shelter to them and also tipping off the Israelis about their locations.

The sooner Hamas and Hezbollah are removed or eradicated then the sooner a peaceful settlement can be found

The sooner Hamas and Hezbollah are removed or eradicated then the sooner a peaceful settlement can be found

Israel have been in Gaza for a year now, how many Hamas members have they arrested/eliminated? How many more are they looking for?

Could much of this have been done using intelligence?

It could not have been done using intelligence or it would have been already.

Some of it was, with the pager attacks.

Would Iran continue to build a nuclear weapon pointed at Israel?
I think that Israel believe that if they stand down from their position of strength then forces around them will build up again and within a decade we will be back here again, perhaps with even less support from the West as the muslim population here grows in influence.

@browserintobuyer don't be so disingenuous. You know as well as I do that there is little or no consensus on the 2000 negotiations.

You also know that the vast majority of the 700,000 Palestinians displaced in 47/48 was due to Jewish nationalists and then the Israeli military.