Offer made to Israel

[mouthpipette]

Lyse Doucet (From our own correspondent, BBC R4, 6/10) reported that last week the Jordanian foreign minister said,

"57 Arab and Muslim countries will, right now, guarantee the security of Israel if Israel ends the occupation and agrees to an independent Palestinian state. "

That's a pretty good offer and I find it interesting that it hasn't been more widely publicised.

Israel special forces were operating in Lebanon for months, taking down missile sites and tunnels without massive loss of life to non-combatants., before the full ground invasion and bombing of Beirut.

What do you mean " little or no consensus on the 2000 negotiations." ?

In 2000 at Camp David, Israel offered the "Palestinians" 97% of what they had asked for, plus agreements to land swaps that would have raised that to 100%. The terrorist liar Arafat was ready to go ahead, then changed his mind and walked out. The first intifada (already planned) broke out.

What I do know, [as would you, if you could but clear your mind of momentum propaganda] is - that In '48, six Arab states invaded Israel and there was a war until 1949. In one place, Lydda, the Israelis forced the Arabs to leave (in the middle of fighting). In all other cases, the Arab Liberation Army and the Arab Higher Committee (chaired by an Arab Nazi who had worked for the Nazis in Berlin) ordered the Arab population to leave until they won the war. Well, they lost the war and the Arabs became refugees. Those Arabs who stayed were welcomed by the Jews and are full Israeli citizens. The Israelis only pushed people out in two places, and pleaded with Arabs to stay in places like Haifa and Jaffa (all well recorded fact). They did this in a time of war, when there was danger to Arabs amidst the fighting. Later, not one Arab country would allow Palestinian Arab refugees to take refuge in their own territory, and that remains true to the present day. In every other corner of the world, refugees from WW2 and later have been happily given citizenship in other countries. If you have complaints, go make them to the Arabs who betrayed their brethren from the start.

The Jews were more than happy to stay within the boundaries established by the UN, but the Arabs were determined to take even that away from them. I advise you to put down the momentum pamphlet, or listening to that ignoramus clown George Galloway bellowing in halting sentences & get a copy of Efraim Karsh's serious and well documented history of this period, 'Palestine Betrayed', and read it. I bet you won't though - far better to march alongside Jihadis that shout "Hamas Hamas, jews to the gas" along with all your fellow "anti-racists".

In 2000 at Camp David, Israel offered the "Palestinians" 97% of what they had asked for, plus agreements to land swaps that would have raised that to 100%. The terrorist liar Arafat was ready to go ahead, then changed his mind and walked out. @browserintobuyer

The blue colouration of words is in the original article, it is not my highlighting.

In 2001, Netanyahu was caught on video boasting to a group of settlers: "I de facto put an end to the Oslo Accords.” He also claimed that he knew how to manipulate Americans, stating: "I know what America is… America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction.”

Anyway, that was 23 years ago, what about pursuing what the Jordanian foreign minister said a week ago ?
As to those on here who said "It's just words" what did you expect ? A full outline of exactly how they plan to do it. For heavens sake, he was talking to journalists in the hope they would spread the message. He either did it as a PR stunt or with a genuine desire to start negotiations moving. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt and find out what he means ?

We're still waiting to find out what he means. He was literally on the news yesterday and didn't even mention it so I guess even he has quietly dropped it.

He was literally on the news yesterday and didn't even mention it so I guess even he has quietly dropped it. @SharonEllis

Pure supposition.....
But even if it had, "slipped his mind", do you not think it's worth sitting him in a room and asking him exactly what he meant ?

Or have you already prejudged him as someone acting in bad faith or someone not to be trusted or both ?

Arab Israelis are often treated as lesser civilians and don't even try and pretend that it doesn't happen. Just look at how this poor Arab teacher was blindfolded and arrested today because maniac like Ben Gvir has been given this much authority by the Israeli government.
Are you trying to tell me that a Jewish Israeli would be treated as such in the same circumstances? Ofcourse not

https://www.timesofisrael.com/arrest-of-arab-israeli-woman-over-tiktok-clip-raises-questions-about-police-conduct/amp/

So much for Israel is a democracy that has free speech. It is if you are Jewish. Not so much if you aren't despite being a citizen.

Eh? Why would he sit in a room with me? I haven't prejudged him, I'm judging him on the 'offer' that has been reported. Which contains absolutely nothing. This conversation is moving into surreal territory now, but if a real proposal comes out great, we'll all watch with interest I'm sure.

@SharonEllis
Eh? Why would he sit in a room with me? ( You're totally right. It'd be unfair to expect him to sit in a room with you )
I haven't prejudged him, I'm judging him on the 'offer' that has been reported. (OK, so what is your current judgemnt of him, based on his offer?. Is he a charlatan, someone promising something they can't deliver or someone acting in good faith?)
Which contains absolutely nothing. ( If 57 Arab and Muslim countries guaranteeing the security of Israel is "nothing" then what do you want ? I'm not saying I believe the guy, just that this line is worth pursuing. Can you think of anything better that doesn't involve explosives and bullets?) This conversation is moving into surreal territory now, ( Not really, it's been very pragmatic, apart from you entertaining the idea that you be in a room snaffling felafel with the Jordanian foreign minister) but if a real proposal comes out great, we'll all watch with interest I'm sure. (Maybe I'm just a little less passive)

Maybe I'm just a little less passive

Ok, great, so exactly what are you actively doing to get this amazing deal over the line? You'll be a dead cert for a Nobel prize, that's for sure.

Maybe I'm just a little less passive

Ok, great, so exactly what are you actively doing to get this amazing deal over the line?

You're right again. I'm probably more passive than you, in fact so passive I CBA to even respond.

You'll be a dead cert for a Nobel prize, that's for sure.
Thanks, I'll put it with the others.

My original post contained 3 questions, care to answer any of them ? That's another question........ are you keeping up ? (You don't need to answer that last one. )

HINT Look for the question marks !!

@SharonEllis

@mouthpipette your OP has no questions in it. Happy to leave it there as we seem to be the last 2 people in the world talking about this 'offer'.

Thank you.

@browserintobuyer is there any other country in the world under your moral microscope, in the same way that Israel is?

Of course there are. But let's be honest it's only a select few that are committing the kind of occupation and massive bombardment that results in mass non- combatant casualties on the scale that Israel is.

What guidelines were broken for @browserintobuyer post to be deleted? It was a good post.

I would like to know too. If its the post I think it was it eas really useful and detailed.

Me too, @browserintobuyer's posts have all been superb.

Browserintobuyer wrote,
".... far better to march alongside Jihadis that shout "Hamas Hamas, jews to the gas" along with all your fellow "anti-racists".

rumblegrumble then wrote,
"Me too, Browserintobuyers posts have all been superb. "

Mouthpipette now writes
Your and my definitions for the word "superb", obviously differ.

Are you saying that you disagree with @browserintobuyer that people who "march alongside Jihadis that shout "Hamas Hamas, jews to the gas" are racist?

Or that you don't think it's worthwhile for @browserintobuyer to point out the willful blindness and double-think of people who seem to believe that shouting racist slogans is "anti-racist" ?

I agree.

Browserintobuyer wrote,
".... far better to march alongside Jihadis that shout "Hamas Hamas, jews to the gas" along with all your fellow "anti-racists".

And on reading it again, it is an insinuation that is highly offensive and deeply insulting. Unless you can show that the poster to whom you are referring has indicated that they have expressed sympathy with Jihadis shouting "Hamas Hamas, jews to the gas", you should apologise.

Thank you. From that Times of Israel article:

^The Israeli prime minister came here today and said that Israel is surrounded by those who want to destroy it,” Safadi said at a
Friday press conference shortly after Netanyahu finished his speech at the UN General Assembly.^

“We’re here — members of the Muslim-Arab committee, mandated by 57 Arab and Muslim countries — and I can tell you very unequivocally, all of us are willing to guarantee the security of Israel in the context of Israel ending the occupation and allowing for the emergence of a Palestinian state,” Safadi passionately argued.

Netanyahu “is creating that danger because he simply does not want the two-state solution. If he does not want the two-state solution, can you ask Israeli officials what is their end-game — other than just wars and wars and wars?”

So how exactly have those 57 members of the Muslim-Arab committee demonstrated their commitment and ability to guarantee Israel's safety so far?

What an odd response. You've decided to complain about one very short, out-of-context fragment which has nothing at all to do with their main argument about the background of this conflict. Presumably then you agree with everything else they've written? Which would suggest you agree that their overall output - minus that one partial sentence - has been superb...?! Now, I don't personally have any problem at all with that fragment (in context), but even if I did it wouldn't detract from all the other extremely detailed and informative threads that they have posted.