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Conflict in the Middle East

"A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians" Former PM Ehud Olmert

202 replies

AhNowTed · 12/07/2024 17:25

I realise a lot of folks can't access links, so the text is faithfully copied.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

Former PM Ehud Olmert

A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians

Arrest warrants will be issued against Israel's political leaders and military commanders – but it is the State of Israel itself that will be put on trial in the end

Almost every day I watch an interview on television with a relative of one of the fallen "wearers of knitted-kippot." Yes, "wearers of knitted-kippot" is the most precise description for these members of the religious Zionist community. Not settlers, not messianists, not annexationists. Heroes. No group in Israel exhibits greater determination, sacrifice, identification, courage and a willingness for combat than they do.

There are others like them – non-religious soldiers from moshavim and kibbutzim; city people from Tel Aviv, Netanya, Herzliya, Haifa, Be'er Sheva and other cities; and those from the periphery, from Kiryat Shmona to Eilat – but none more than them. The number of fallen soldiers among the religious Zionist community well exceeds their percentage among the general population.

We can't ignore this fact, and we mustn't obscure or devalue it. The military is fighting with amazing daring, courage and sacrifice, in part because of the contribution of these soldiers, and those like them. When we speak about togetherness, national unity and solidarity – I'm with them. On the battlefield, the unity exists and strengthens them.

But sometimes when I hear these relatives of the fallen and those abducted – some of them, but not all – my heart breaks and the feeling of unity cracks. Many of them don't want a hostage deal. Their children are hostages and every day they could well pay with their lives. Their fate is unclear, their sanity and psychological resilience are being put to a harsh test, but they think the need for total victory, destruction of Hamas and the destruction of Gaza – along with the unavoidable deaths of many of the hostages, and necessarily also the death of Palestinians who have no connection to Hamas terrorism and may even be its victims as well – stands at the top of the list of priorities. I don't feel unity with this approach.

None of them say it explicitly, but I get the impression that the public figures from the believing, settler community that yearns to settle Gaza and Lebanonand are able to contend with the danger of death to their children – when they are standing with admirable, but also revulsive, determination in their demands to continue the fighting and total victory, they will not have any difficulty containing the burning of Palestinian communities and property of completely innocent Palestinians.

Many of them justify the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and call to expand the fighting in the north, so they can continue the work of destruction and obliteration in the West Bank. All of this on the way to fulfill the greater dream of liberating parts of the Land of Israel and expelling Palestinians, in advance of annexation of all the territories and turning Israel into an apartheid state that will be boycotted and ostracized by the entire world.

This is the dream of thousands of settlers, young people called "hilltop youth" and many others who support them, push them, cover up for them and hide them. Many of the local leaders in Judea and Samaria pay lip service and are filled with self-righteousness. They ignore the data published by the reliable investigative press (for example, Ronen Bergman and staff of The New York Times) and UN agencies, U.S. State Department and the U.S. National Security Council. "It's not that bad," they say. "Exaggerated," and "no foundation for the accusations."

There is a basis. I believe the words of the outgoing head of the IDF Central Command, Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fuchs, a brave soldier, an admirable commander, when he speaks with candor and openness about what his eyes saw in the occupied territories at our hands. He is not delusional and has not invented anything. He saw, his soldiers saw. And everyone knows about the reports on the settlers – not all of them, maybe not even the majority, but a very impressive number of them – who attack, loot, destroy, ruin, burn and kill innocent people – and also attack Israeli soldiers who are unwilling to lend a hand to their crimes.

Often present at the riots in these places are officers from the Border Police. I know many of their commanders in the past and present. They are among the most courageous, determined and daring of Israel's soldiers. But it is impossible to blur the facts that many of them close one eye, and sometimes even two, when criminal acts by Jewish rioters are taking place right next to them. How many of these rioters are arrested? How many of them are put on trial? How many of them are punished according to the severity of their actions? A marginal number. Almost certainly less than the number of protesters thrown to the ground, beaten and humiliated by Ben-Gvir's police officers.

None of this could have happened without the inspiration, back up and support given by the country's most senior leaders. First and foremost, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of TikTok, who controls the government like a violent bully. And along with him, Bezalel Smotrich, the minister for the territories in the Defense Ministry. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir support the settling of the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon by Jewish settlers. In the near future a halakhic authority will be found who will locate in the ancient writings the verse or two that will prove Southern Lebanon has always been part of our holy and historic homeland; and from here it is just a short road to a mass settler movement led by Daniella Weiss.

For this delusional goal they are encouraging an all-out war in the north, which is unnecessary and unjustified. Instead, we need to reach an agreement with the Lebanese government, to agree to minor border adjustments, which do not harm any historic Jewish property, and constitute no real security threat to Israel; and to bring about a withdrawal of Hezbollah forces dozens of kilometers from the Israeli border near the Litani River, as we did in practice after the Second Lebanon War. And the most important thing: We must return the residents of the north to their homes and rebuild their communities.

This government wants a war in the north to advance its great dream – a war of everyone against everyone, mutual destruction, expulsion of Palestinians and annexing the territories to Israel.

Given all this, I am warning you:

I am warning Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: The day is drawing near when arrest warrants will be issued against you for the crimes being carried out every day in Judea and Samaria by Israel, with the support of its government, while you intentionally turn a blind eye to it. The events in Gaza can be defended, because it's possible to claim they are not a result of policy, order or intention by Israel, not even by you. In the worst case, as we all know, you are not really managing, leading or directing. After all, you're not responsible for anything.

But these arguments won't be available to you concerning events in Judea and Samaria. Here crimes are committed on a daily basis, not by soldiers and not against soldiers, but by rioters who are Israeli citizens, Arab haters, with the clear intention of expelling them from their homes and the villages where they have lived all their lives.

As prime minister, you know about all these events. If you choose to ignore them too, you won't be able to deny you heard the warning of the head of the Central Command and other senior IDF commanders. I have spoken with a few of them and they are ashamed that these things are happening in areas under our control.

When these accusations are made against you, Mr. Prime Minister, not a single person with a conscience will be found among us, or in the international arena that supports us, who will be able to defend you.

I am also warning Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, for whom there will also be an arrest warrant. He is responsible for security, he can act and struggle against the reckless policies of Netanyahu and Smotrich, who is in charge of the territories in the Defense Ministry. Gallant prefers to be addicted to the continuation of the war in Gaza, to the warnings and threats of Hezbollah, and closes his eyes to what is happening in the territories under his responsibility.

I am warning Ben-Gvir, the minister of threats, incitement and supporting the hilltop youth – you won't avoid arrest warrants. Given the incitement, division and bullying that you unleash against the army commanders and specifically the chief of staff, the Shin Bet chief and Mossad warriors, you deserve arrest warrants from the attorney general. But even if she won't do it, you'll get arrest warrants from the International Criminal Court for the responsibility you bear and of which you are even proud.

I am warning Smotrich, who is actively extending the war and blocking negotiations for a hostage-release deal, encourages settling Gaza, inspires the hilltop youth, and supports Jewish settlement in southern Lebanon and total war in the north, the expected result of which will be the destruction and death of thousands of citizens among us and among them. Arrest warrants await you, too.

I am warning the police, Border Police and army commanders. You won't be able to shirk responsibility for the crimes being committed against the Palestinians in the territories. Arrest warrants will also be issued against you, and you'll have no real response.

Indeed, arrest warrants will be issued against the prime minister, leaders, cabinet ministers and commanders personally – but it is the State of Israel that will be tried in the end. All this at a time when Israel wants to end the war, return the hostages, withdraw from Gaza, bring in an international force, Arab or European, that will preserve the gains from the war that will prevent Hamas from rehabilitating and returning to power in Gaza. Israel wants to launch negotiations with the Palestinians over a peace deal between them and us, and the establishment of a nonmilitarized Palestinian state as part of a regional agreement that will create a stable, strong and reliable axis. Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, Saudi Arabia and the United States would form the base of and stand as the backbone of regional security against Iran.

I issue this warning because if we continue to reconcile with crimes against the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, serious and painful sanctions will be levied against Israel, and we won't have a good defense.

A warning: Israel will have no defense when charged with crimes against the Palestinians

***

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

OP posts:
SingleDadReally · 22/07/2024 10:01

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 09:53

@Humdingerydoo no not at all, but as per your post and many others it's usually "the Palestinians need to...." as if Israel are the hapless victims. Administrative detainees do not have prisoner status under international law, it is actually a contravention of the law to imprison anyone without charge indefinitely. I'm not trying to get anyone's "back up", this is an internet forum, it doesn't really count for anything.

All you're doing is making things worse for everyone by encouraging further disinformation and hatred

Again this line has been trotted out so many times, needlessly. It just comes across as another DARVO attempt, along with the "lacking in critical thinking". I'm genuinely not trying to encourage any hatred or disinformation.

Basically the supporters of Israel are becoming completely bereft of logical arguments and are now using the “it’s all very complicated and you don’t understand” trope. In reality it’s a very simple situation. International law has been based on universal human rights and the principle of self determination for decades. The Palestinian people are denied both by Zionism and it’s enablers in the west.

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 10:03

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 09:53

@Humdingerydoo no not at all, but as per your post and many others it's usually "the Palestinians need to...." as if Israel are the hapless victims. Administrative detainees do not have prisoner status under international law, it is actually a contravention of the law to imprison anyone without charge indefinitely. I'm not trying to get anyone's "back up", this is an internet forum, it doesn't really count for anything.

All you're doing is making things worse for everyone by encouraging further disinformation and hatred

Again this line has been trotted out so many times, needlessly. It just comes across as another DARVO attempt, along with the "lacking in critical thinking". I'm genuinely not trying to encourage any hatred or disinformation.

But the Palestinians do also need to do something! It isn't entirely up to Israel to stop it all. Israel isn't 100% at fault, and obviously neither are the Palestinians. Just like Palestinians aren't all 100% the victims, which seems to be the stance taken by many.

And @SingleDadReally , by "Before Israel existed all races and creeds lived in Palestine relatively peacefully, or at least as peacefully as anyway else in the world" it sounds an awful lot like you were ok with how appallingly Jewish people were treated in the area because it was normalised by how equally appallingly Jewish people were treated in the rest of the world as well. Jewish people didn't live peacefully in what is now Israel because they kept getting colonised and murdered or kicked out! Yet because you are apparently the one who decides when history started, you've decided that actually Jewish people are the settler colonisers 🤦🏻‍♀️ It's utterly pathetic. The amount of lies and hate speech MN have allowed from you on this thread is truly mind-boggling. You really need to give it a rest, the amount of irrational hatred you have towards Israels existence and the idea that Jews have a right to self-determination in their homeland is not healthy.

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 10:08

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 10:03

But the Palestinians do also need to do something! It isn't entirely up to Israel to stop it all. Israel isn't 100% at fault, and obviously neither are the Palestinians. Just like Palestinians aren't all 100% the victims, which seems to be the stance taken by many.

And @SingleDadReally , by "Before Israel existed all races and creeds lived in Palestine relatively peacefully, or at least as peacefully as anyway else in the world" it sounds an awful lot like you were ok with how appallingly Jewish people were treated in the area because it was normalised by how equally appallingly Jewish people were treated in the rest of the world as well. Jewish people didn't live peacefully in what is now Israel because they kept getting colonised and murdered or kicked out! Yet because you are apparently the one who decides when history started, you've decided that actually Jewish people are the settler colonisers 🤦🏻‍♀️ It's utterly pathetic. The amount of lies and hate speech MN have allowed from you on this thread is truly mind-boggling. You really need to give it a rest, the amount of irrational hatred you have towards Israels existence and the idea that Jews have a right to self-determination in their homeland is not healthy.

I'm not saying that the Palestinians don't need to not do anything, but the oppressed should never be the starting point. I don't usually comment on individuals but it very much comes across as if the blinkers are very much on with regards to Israel's role in the whole conflict historically.

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 10:18

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 10:08

I'm not saying that the Palestinians don't need to not do anything, but the oppressed should never be the starting point. I don't usually comment on individuals but it very much comes across as if the blinkers are very much on with regards to Israel's role in the whole conflict historically.

No, no blinkers. I'm very well aware of the whole history, not just the bits that suit me.

My whole point was take off your blinkers and accept that Palestinians aren't the only victim here, which you then somehow have interpreted as me only seeing one side of it all 🤦🏻‍♀️ I know it's a regular occurrence on this board, taking what someone has said and then turning it around and pretending they've said the opposite, but it's really quite tedious. Maybe you should have kept to your usual policy of not commenting on individuals if you weren't going to be doing so in an even remotely fair or accurate manner.

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 10:38

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 10:18

No, no blinkers. I'm very well aware of the whole history, not just the bits that suit me.

My whole point was take off your blinkers and accept that Palestinians aren't the only victim here, which you then somehow have interpreted as me only seeing one side of it all 🤦🏻‍♀️ I know it's a regular occurrence on this board, taking what someone has said and then turning it around and pretending they've said the opposite, but it's really quite tedious. Maybe you should have kept to your usual policy of not commenting on individuals if you weren't going to be doing so in an even remotely fair or accurate manner.

To be honest I think I'm fair and reasoned, I'm not interested in bun fights and I try very hard to stick to (reliable) sources and facts. I don't think I have blinkers on, I have never said that there aren't Israelis suffering, but I think it's to a much lesser extent. I also think the main onus for change is upon Israel. I personally have found the "oh my god these people are soooo stupid!" posts to be very hurtful. There have been tens of thousands of people killed in the last months, children with body parts blown off and wounds infested with maggots, it's very upsetting, and to be told you lack critical thinking or are a blue haired sixth former/batshit just seems like a very nasty form of arrogant bullying. ETA: I haven't commented on anyone's names and I'm not intending to either.

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 11:13

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 10:38

To be honest I think I'm fair and reasoned, I'm not interested in bun fights and I try very hard to stick to (reliable) sources and facts. I don't think I have blinkers on, I have never said that there aren't Israelis suffering, but I think it's to a much lesser extent. I also think the main onus for change is upon Israel. I personally have found the "oh my god these people are soooo stupid!" posts to be very hurtful. There have been tens of thousands of people killed in the last months, children with body parts blown off and wounds infested with maggots, it's very upsetting, and to be told you lack critical thinking or are a blue haired sixth former/batshit just seems like a very nasty form of arrogant bullying. ETA: I haven't commented on anyone's names and I'm not intending to either.

Edited

When did I say any of those things about you though? I feel like you're accusing me of something I haven't said or done, which is why I consider what you're saying unfair and unreasonable. You're making me out to be something and someone I'm not.

79Helene · 22/07/2024 12:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 12:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You clearly have a much better memory than I do - thank you for the reminder! I'll disengage now then.

Sad that at least two people on this thread have felt the need to visit the Jewish MN board in recent months because of Israel.

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 13:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What stunt?

@Humdingerydoo I'm not aiming anything I said at you in particular.

SharonEllis · 22/07/2024 14:04

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 13:21

What stunt?

@Humdingerydoo I'm not aiming anything I said at you in particular.

Edited

Well your comments certainly came across as being aimed at her in particular. You didn't just argue the substance of the point you accused her of DARVO and having blinkers on. You have attempted to undermine her when she is extremely measured, rational and knowledgeable voice in this debate.

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 16:39

@Humdingerydoo sorry I read my post back and it does seem as if I’m referring to you re the blinkers. That wasn’t meant to be the case. If I wanted to apply it to you I would have directly said. I stand by the DARVO comment though regarding your accusation of me spreading misinformation and hatred - you weren’t able to qualify that statement. But again it wasn’t just for you, it has been happening a lot I feel.

I still haven’t received an explanation as to the “stunt you pulled on Jewish Mumsnetters”. I’ve no idea what this is about, I feel this is a serious accusation to make and makes it sound as if I’ve done something very underhand. I’m reporting it as a result.

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 16:52

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 16:39

@Humdingerydoo sorry I read my post back and it does seem as if I’m referring to you re the blinkers. That wasn’t meant to be the case. If I wanted to apply it to you I would have directly said. I stand by the DARVO comment though regarding your accusation of me spreading misinformation and hatred - you weren’t able to qualify that statement. But again it wasn’t just for you, it has been happening a lot I feel.

I still haven’t received an explanation as to the “stunt you pulled on Jewish Mumsnetters”. I’ve no idea what this is about, I feel this is a serious accusation to make and makes it sound as if I’ve done something very underhand. I’m reporting it as a result.

Edited

You did directly say that I have blinkers.

"I don't usually comment on individuals but it very much comes across as if the blinkers are very much on with regards to Israel's role in the whole conflict historically."

That was a comment directed at me, there is no other way of interpreting it, really.

What statement exactly would you like me to qualify?

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 17:00

"You will get a lot further with us "pro-Israelis" if you stop using unnecessarily inflammatory language designed to get our backs up. Because unsurprisingly, all you're achieving is getting our backs up. Like when your accuse Israel, or us personally on other threads, of crying anti-Semite. All you're doing is making things worse for everyone by encouraging further disinformation and hatred."

I'm not sure what further explanations you would like, to be honest. I feel like I explained that your words of choice seemed to be designed to get our backs up, and that by accusing us of "crying Anti-Semitism" you are directly contributing towards an increase in hatred and also disinformation. You're pretending anti-Semitism isn't anti-Semitism. I'm not sure what part of that you'd like me to further qualify or how it is DARVO. Unless you were talking about your own post being DARVO, but that doesn't make sense either.

79Helene · 22/07/2024 17:10

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 16:39

@Humdingerydoo sorry I read my post back and it does seem as if I’m referring to you re the blinkers. That wasn’t meant to be the case. If I wanted to apply it to you I would have directly said. I stand by the DARVO comment though regarding your accusation of me spreading misinformation and hatred - you weren’t able to qualify that statement. But again it wasn’t just for you, it has been happening a lot I feel.

I still haven’t received an explanation as to the “stunt you pulled on Jewish Mumsnetters”. I’ve no idea what this is about, I feel this is a serious accusation to make and makes it sound as if I’ve done something very underhand. I’m reporting it as a result.

Edited

Report away! What a short memory you seem to have. You posted an offensive and inflammatory post a couple of days ago on a different thread, where you bragged about having followed a poster over to Jewish Musmnetters (now deleted but it was 20/07/2024 13:28 to be precise). And as if by magic a whole thread was deleted on that board! A thread where people were posting about being fed up having to deal with antisemitism, but for some reason we're not allowed to talk about the racism we have to see, and deal with.

That space isn't for you. Find a better use of your time.

79Helene · 22/07/2024 17:12

And no, it wasn't the Antisemitism thread that's still standing.

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 17:24

79Helene · 22/07/2024 17:10

Report away! What a short memory you seem to have. You posted an offensive and inflammatory post a couple of days ago on a different thread, where you bragged about having followed a poster over to Jewish Musmnetters (now deleted but it was 20/07/2024 13:28 to be precise). And as if by magic a whole thread was deleted on that board! A thread where people were posting about being fed up having to deal with antisemitism, but for some reason we're not allowed to talk about the racism we have to see, and deal with.

That space isn't for you. Find a better use of your time.

Please read my post again. I did not "follow a poster over" (and anyway if I did, it's a public forum, there are no rules about not looking on certain forums!) That poster posted a very inflammatory, pathetic post, on what I thought was the conflict board. When I went back I couldn't find it, thought I was mistaken about the board and did an advanced search, which took me to the Jewish board. I realized then that she had indeed posted in conflict board and then felt the need to post the same post in JMN, stating that we were all so stupid and "why do I bother with that lot?!". She had never intended on engaging, she was being inflammatory and goady and it came across as completely attention seeking and pathetic really. I don't know if her original post was removed by MN or what, but there was no deletion message, and a poster on conflict asked about it and I said what had happened. This is absolutely not "pulling a stunt on Jewish Mumsnetters". I said what I said publicly, there was absolutely nothing underhand or nefarious.
Just as a heads up, I look at quite a few boards that don't necessarily apply to me. Black MN, gardening, SE Asian and yesterday I even looked at a "anal sex in christianity" thread, despite neither being christian nor engaging in anal sex. I am not in any way trying to make any space "for me". MN is a completely open, public forum and users can access what they wish freely.

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 17:32

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 17:00

"You will get a lot further with us "pro-Israelis" if you stop using unnecessarily inflammatory language designed to get our backs up. Because unsurprisingly, all you're achieving is getting our backs up. Like when your accuse Israel, or us personally on other threads, of crying anti-Semite. All you're doing is making things worse for everyone by encouraging further disinformation and hatred."

I'm not sure what further explanations you would like, to be honest. I feel like I explained that your words of choice seemed to be designed to get our backs up, and that by accusing us of "crying Anti-Semitism" you are directly contributing towards an increase in hatred and also disinformation. You're pretending anti-Semitism isn't anti-Semitism. I'm not sure what part of that you'd like me to further qualify or how it is DARVO. Unless you were talking about your own post being DARVO, but that doesn't make sense either.

I have never, ever accused anyone on this board of crying antisemitism. I said Israel (as in the government) cry antisemitism in response to any documentation by HR orgs and NGO's (including Israeli ones) of the abuse of Palestinians. This is well known, it has been the MO for years.

What statement exactly would you like me to qualify?

You said I was spreading hatred and misinformation, in response to facts that I posted. I would have expected you to have refuted the facts to qualify this statement. This seemed to me to be DARVO. I can honestly say that the blinkered thing wasn't specifically for you, like I said, I would have directly accused you if that was the case.

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 17:48

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 17:32

I have never, ever accused anyone on this board of crying antisemitism. I said Israel (as in the government) cry antisemitism in response to any documentation by HR orgs and NGO's (including Israeli ones) of the abuse of Palestinians. This is well known, it has been the MO for years.

What statement exactly would you like me to qualify?

You said I was spreading hatred and misinformation, in response to facts that I posted. I would have expected you to have refuted the facts to qualify this statement. This seemed to me to be DARVO. I can honestly say that the blinkered thing wasn't specifically for you, like I said, I would have directly accused you if that was the case.

Again, you did directly accuse me of it. You said it to me in response to my comment. I'm not sure why you're now pretending otherwise but hey ho.

With regards to DARVO, I'm not 100% sure you know what it actually means so it's probably best to just drop it.

In fact, let's just drop all of this. This is an utterly pointless conversation because we're now at a point where you're throwing accusations around and then pretending you didn't, all while claiming you're fair and reasoned, and I'm done with it. So have a good evening, enjoy the sunshine if you have any, and enjoy lurking over at Jewish MN 👍🏻 Let me know if there's anything in particular you'd like us to discuss over there to make it more interesting for you.

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 18:14

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 17:48

Again, you did directly accuse me of it. You said it to me in response to my comment. I'm not sure why you're now pretending otherwise but hey ho.

With regards to DARVO, I'm not 100% sure you know what it actually means so it's probably best to just drop it.

In fact, let's just drop all of this. This is an utterly pointless conversation because we're now at a point where you're throwing accusations around and then pretending you didn't, all while claiming you're fair and reasoned, and I'm done with it. So have a good evening, enjoy the sunshine if you have any, and enjoy lurking over at Jewish MN 👍🏻 Let me know if there's anything in particular you'd like us to discuss over there to make it more interesting for you.

I know this poster said they aren't coming back, but just in case anyone is in doubt, this post is exactly what DARVO is.

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 18:21

Brilliant. I didn't realise I was legally obliged to just sit there and accept your accusations of Israel crying anti-Semitism or else be accused of DARVO 🤦🏻‍♀️

People shouldn't be allowed to make whatever claims they want and then accuse others of DARVO for challenging them. That's ridiculous and also quite immature. Don't say something in a public forum if you aren't willing to be challenged on it.

poshsnobtwit · 22/07/2024 18:34

Hum, I'm not interested in a bunfight, but multiple times now you have changed your accusation against me. This is DARVO. I'm very happy to be challenged, or even pulled up if I state something incorrectly. Of course you aren't obligated to do anything, but please keep it factual when you make accusations.

Humdingerydoo · 22/07/2024 18:43

To be clear, this is a poster who said directly to me that she doesn't usually comment on individuals but that I'm blinkered, and has then said she didn't say that about me at all and has also tried to imply that I've made all sorts of comments about her being a blue-haired sixth former and that I'm an arrogant bully before backtracking and saying she wasn't talking about me. But I'm the one accused of DARVO for not letting her comments go unchallenged.

And then says she's not interested in a bunfight and then immediately aiming a bun right at my face 😂

Ok then.

Byyyyye, feel free to stop talking about me now.

stormy4319trevor · 22/07/2024 22:11

I can hardly bear to watch the footage from Gaza now, but I just watched this. For those who support the military action in Gaza, what did these children do to anybody? This is just so wrong, utterly inhumane, what is wrong with politicians and those who support it? How can people bear to torture thousands of children this way?

Israel-Gaza: 400,000 residents ordered to leave Khan Younis

At least 70 Palestinians have been killed and more than 200 others are said to have been injured as Israeli forces launched a new offensive in the southern G...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgtFxnWNbrQ

ScrollingLeaves · 23/07/2024 11:40

stormy4319trevor · 22/07/2024 22:11

I can hardly bear to watch the footage from Gaza now, but I just watched this. For those who support the military action in Gaza, what did these children do to anybody? This is just so wrong, utterly inhumane, what is wrong with politicians and those who support it? How can people bear to torture thousands of children this way?

It is horrible.

As to Netanyahu saying Israel is America’s great ally, I think they are America’s downfall, as the US/UK is now visibly a joint leader in murder.

The Palestinian children are not only having to ‘run’ in terror from what they had been told was a safe, but they have such responsibilities compared to our children. For example in this video we saw a very young child carrying a baby in a carrier while trying to run, the little boy pulling his skeletal sister in a cart, and small children carrying huge water containers.

If Hamas really are shooting rockets from there where the people were trying to stay safe, they are idiots.

stormy4319trevor · 23/07/2024 21:49

@ScrollingLeaves I suppose it's not the first time the US/UK have been complicit in causing suffering. There's a long colonial history and the horrors of slavery for example. But I hoped this was history and that the world is better now. I suppose it isn't. As you say, the children in Gaza carry massive responsibilities such as trying to protect their siblings, or salvage water while running from bombs, hungry, orphaned, wounded, and there is no sanctuary. So many of them, thousands of injured, traumatised kids. I can't even express my despair at the cruelty of it all. Or the hopelessness I feel when I hear people supporting or dismissing their suffering.

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