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Conflict in the Middle East

"A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians" Former PM Ehud Olmert

202 replies

AhNowTed · 12/07/2024 17:25

I realise a lot of folks can't access links, so the text is faithfully copied.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

Former PM Ehud Olmert

A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians

Arrest warrants will be issued against Israel's political leaders and military commanders – but it is the State of Israel itself that will be put on trial in the end

Almost every day I watch an interview on television with a relative of one of the fallen "wearers of knitted-kippot." Yes, "wearers of knitted-kippot" is the most precise description for these members of the religious Zionist community. Not settlers, not messianists, not annexationists. Heroes. No group in Israel exhibits greater determination, sacrifice, identification, courage and a willingness for combat than they do.

There are others like them – non-religious soldiers from moshavim and kibbutzim; city people from Tel Aviv, Netanya, Herzliya, Haifa, Be'er Sheva and other cities; and those from the periphery, from Kiryat Shmona to Eilat – but none more than them. The number of fallen soldiers among the religious Zionist community well exceeds their percentage among the general population.

We can't ignore this fact, and we mustn't obscure or devalue it. The military is fighting with amazing daring, courage and sacrifice, in part because of the contribution of these soldiers, and those like them. When we speak about togetherness, national unity and solidarity – I'm with them. On the battlefield, the unity exists and strengthens them.

But sometimes when I hear these relatives of the fallen and those abducted – some of them, but not all – my heart breaks and the feeling of unity cracks. Many of them don't want a hostage deal. Their children are hostages and every day they could well pay with their lives. Their fate is unclear, their sanity and psychological resilience are being put to a harsh test, but they think the need for total victory, destruction of Hamas and the destruction of Gaza – along with the unavoidable deaths of many of the hostages, and necessarily also the death of Palestinians who have no connection to Hamas terrorism and may even be its victims as well – stands at the top of the list of priorities. I don't feel unity with this approach.

None of them say it explicitly, but I get the impression that the public figures from the believing, settler community that yearns to settle Gaza and Lebanonand are able to contend with the danger of death to their children – when they are standing with admirable, but also revulsive, determination in their demands to continue the fighting and total victory, they will not have any difficulty containing the burning of Palestinian communities and property of completely innocent Palestinians.

Many of them justify the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and call to expand the fighting in the north, so they can continue the work of destruction and obliteration in the West Bank. All of this on the way to fulfill the greater dream of liberating parts of the Land of Israel and expelling Palestinians, in advance of annexation of all the territories and turning Israel into an apartheid state that will be boycotted and ostracized by the entire world.

This is the dream of thousands of settlers, young people called "hilltop youth" and many others who support them, push them, cover up for them and hide them. Many of the local leaders in Judea and Samaria pay lip service and are filled with self-righteousness. They ignore the data published by the reliable investigative press (for example, Ronen Bergman and staff of The New York Times) and UN agencies, U.S. State Department and the U.S. National Security Council. "It's not that bad," they say. "Exaggerated," and "no foundation for the accusations."

There is a basis. I believe the words of the outgoing head of the IDF Central Command, Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fuchs, a brave soldier, an admirable commander, when he speaks with candor and openness about what his eyes saw in the occupied territories at our hands. He is not delusional and has not invented anything. He saw, his soldiers saw. And everyone knows about the reports on the settlers – not all of them, maybe not even the majority, but a very impressive number of them – who attack, loot, destroy, ruin, burn and kill innocent people – and also attack Israeli soldiers who are unwilling to lend a hand to their crimes.

Often present at the riots in these places are officers from the Border Police. I know many of their commanders in the past and present. They are among the most courageous, determined and daring of Israel's soldiers. But it is impossible to blur the facts that many of them close one eye, and sometimes even two, when criminal acts by Jewish rioters are taking place right next to them. How many of these rioters are arrested? How many of them are put on trial? How many of them are punished according to the severity of their actions? A marginal number. Almost certainly less than the number of protesters thrown to the ground, beaten and humiliated by Ben-Gvir's police officers.

None of this could have happened without the inspiration, back up and support given by the country's most senior leaders. First and foremost, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of TikTok, who controls the government like a violent bully. And along with him, Bezalel Smotrich, the minister for the territories in the Defense Ministry. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir support the settling of the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon by Jewish settlers. In the near future a halakhic authority will be found who will locate in the ancient writings the verse or two that will prove Southern Lebanon has always been part of our holy and historic homeland; and from here it is just a short road to a mass settler movement led by Daniella Weiss.

For this delusional goal they are encouraging an all-out war in the north, which is unnecessary and unjustified. Instead, we need to reach an agreement with the Lebanese government, to agree to minor border adjustments, which do not harm any historic Jewish property, and constitute no real security threat to Israel; and to bring about a withdrawal of Hezbollah forces dozens of kilometers from the Israeli border near the Litani River, as we did in practice after the Second Lebanon War. And the most important thing: We must return the residents of the north to their homes and rebuild their communities.

This government wants a war in the north to advance its great dream – a war of everyone against everyone, mutual destruction, expulsion of Palestinians and annexing the territories to Israel.

Given all this, I am warning you:

I am warning Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: The day is drawing near when arrest warrants will be issued against you for the crimes being carried out every day in Judea and Samaria by Israel, with the support of its government, while you intentionally turn a blind eye to it. The events in Gaza can be defended, because it's possible to claim they are not a result of policy, order or intention by Israel, not even by you. In the worst case, as we all know, you are not really managing, leading or directing. After all, you're not responsible for anything.

But these arguments won't be available to you concerning events in Judea and Samaria. Here crimes are committed on a daily basis, not by soldiers and not against soldiers, but by rioters who are Israeli citizens, Arab haters, with the clear intention of expelling them from their homes and the villages where they have lived all their lives.

As prime minister, you know about all these events. If you choose to ignore them too, you won't be able to deny you heard the warning of the head of the Central Command and other senior IDF commanders. I have spoken with a few of them and they are ashamed that these things are happening in areas under our control.

When these accusations are made against you, Mr. Prime Minister, not a single person with a conscience will be found among us, or in the international arena that supports us, who will be able to defend you.

I am also warning Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, for whom there will also be an arrest warrant. He is responsible for security, he can act and struggle against the reckless policies of Netanyahu and Smotrich, who is in charge of the territories in the Defense Ministry. Gallant prefers to be addicted to the continuation of the war in Gaza, to the warnings and threats of Hezbollah, and closes his eyes to what is happening in the territories under his responsibility.

I am warning Ben-Gvir, the minister of threats, incitement and supporting the hilltop youth – you won't avoid arrest warrants. Given the incitement, division and bullying that you unleash against the army commanders and specifically the chief of staff, the Shin Bet chief and Mossad warriors, you deserve arrest warrants from the attorney general. But even if she won't do it, you'll get arrest warrants from the International Criminal Court for the responsibility you bear and of which you are even proud.

I am warning Smotrich, who is actively extending the war and blocking negotiations for a hostage-release deal, encourages settling Gaza, inspires the hilltop youth, and supports Jewish settlement in southern Lebanon and total war in the north, the expected result of which will be the destruction and death of thousands of citizens among us and among them. Arrest warrants await you, too.

I am warning the police, Border Police and army commanders. You won't be able to shirk responsibility for the crimes being committed against the Palestinians in the territories. Arrest warrants will also be issued against you, and you'll have no real response.

Indeed, arrest warrants will be issued against the prime minister, leaders, cabinet ministers and commanders personally – but it is the State of Israel that will be tried in the end. All this at a time when Israel wants to end the war, return the hostages, withdraw from Gaza, bring in an international force, Arab or European, that will preserve the gains from the war that will prevent Hamas from rehabilitating and returning to power in Gaza. Israel wants to launch negotiations with the Palestinians over a peace deal between them and us, and the establishment of a nonmilitarized Palestinian state as part of a regional agreement that will create a stable, strong and reliable axis. Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, Saudi Arabia and the United States would form the base of and stand as the backbone of regional security against Iran.

I issue this warning because if we continue to reconcile with crimes against the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, serious and painful sanctions will be levied against Israel, and we won't have a good defense.

A warning: Israel will have no defense when charged with crimes against the Palestinians

***

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

OP posts:
stormy4319trevor · 13/07/2024 14:21

Thanks for the link @AhNowTed Olmert has had some issues, by the look of it, though so have the current government he is criticising. I don't know what to think in terms of his possible influence and political foresight, to be honest.

BelleHathor · 13/07/2024 14:35

Thanks for the article AhNowTed it's extremely interesting timing as Hezbollah just released a second video containing Drone reconnaissance of strategic Israeli targets last week and hinted at more to come. Also coming after the disclosure of the Hannibal Directive being used by the IDF on October 7th implicating Netanyahu's government.
All these actions seem designed to put pressure on Netanyahu and reflect the Democrats desire to get rid of Netanyahu and blame the whole situation on his government then return to business as usual.
Olmert is echoing this sentiment, "look decent Israeli's, it those crazies over there that are making us look bad, get rid of them, you're better than this".

However the contingent that appears to have "War Fever" won't listen and unfortunately I think that Netanyahu is prolonging this as long as possible until Trump is likely elected and if that means war with Lebanon, fine. His son is safely living in Miami and he does not care about the death and destruction that will happen.

AhNowTed · 13/07/2024 14:37

stormy4319trevor · 13/07/2024 14:21

Thanks for the link @AhNowTed Olmert has had some issues, by the look of it, though so have the current government he is criticising. I don't know what to think in terms of his possible influence and political foresight, to be honest.

It will have zero impact on the zealots In the government, but it might embolden other moderates with a profile to raise their voices.

We can only hope it does.

OP posts:
stormy4319trevor · 13/07/2024 14:48

@BelleHathor I imagine the US election will have considerable import for the Israeli political establishment.

BelleHathor · 13/07/2024 15:04

stormy4319trevor · 13/07/2024 14:48

@BelleHathor I imagine the US election will have considerable import for the Israeli political establishment.

Absolutely important Stormy not just for the Israeli Government but for the stability of the region and potentially the whole world.

The Republicans are standing fully behind Netanyahu, even going as far as quoting scripture to justify their support. There are some who are quite happy to sacrifice people in order to kick off a regional war.

SingleDadReally · 13/07/2024 15:14

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AhNowTed · 13/07/2024 15:23

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I agree with your first point, and that is obvious.

As to the rest. Look you may hold that Israel has no right to exist and we can argue about that till the cows come home.

It does exist and it's not going anywhere.

And constantly arguing this futile point gets everyone absolutely nowhere.

And as for this earlier point you made "The US population have already decided its more trouble than its worth. Once that’s translated into congress and the Presidency the protection that Israel has from reality will end."

That is patent nonsense.

Let's deal with the here and now please.

OP posts:
SingleDadReally · 13/07/2024 15:34

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AhNowTed · 13/07/2024 15:41

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This thread is about an important article by a former Israeli PM.

Can you please stop.

You are endangering this thread and likely to get it deleted.

Take your futile argument elsewhere.

Israel exists and it's not going anywhere.

This is about recognising the complex problems in a very complex conflict.

OP posts:
Liv999 · 13/07/2024 18:23

LiterallyOnFire · 12/07/2024 20:41

Israel is most definitely not "on trial for genocide".

You are transparent.

Not yet

PeasfullPerson · 13/07/2024 18:50

The Former PM has in my opinion written this article because he cares about the future of Israel and must be incredibly frustrated to witness the damage that is being done to it. He is trying to help! It’s almost as though the current leaders of Israel are seeking their own destruction! They haven’t only lost control of the situation, they have lost control of themselves. How did Israel end up
with them??!!

Limesodaagain · 13/07/2024 19:49

AhNowTed · 13/07/2024 15:41

This thread is about an important article by a former Israeli PM.

Can you please stop.

You are endangering this thread and likely to get it deleted.

Take your futile argument elsewhere.

Israel exists and it's not going anywhere.

This is about recognising the complex problems in a very complex conflict.

Thanks for this.
Totally agree with your final sentence.
I think most people want a two state solution where both sides feel safe.
When people are afraid they behave irrationally Extremist language just increases the fear so if we are serious about peace we need to call it out publicly.

SingleDadReally · 14/07/2024 21:21

Israel is most definitely on trial for genocide. At the end of January the ICC said the South African case against them was plausible and allowed it to continue. They also made multiple interim orders against Israel (which they’ve totally ignored). Warrants for the arrest of the Israeli Prime Minister and Defence Minister for war crimes are in the process of being issued. Olmert is a “moderate” by the rather warped state of Israeli politics but he just believes it’s acceptable to murder Palestinians in industrial quantities, build illegal settlements etc to achieve the aims of the Israeli state. I notice that yesterday 90 Palestinians were killed in an air strike on a refugee camp to attempt to kill one Hamas official. Since October 16,000 children have been slaughtered. This is what the apologists for Israel are supporting.

SharonEllis · 14/07/2024 21:54

SingleDadReally · 14/07/2024 21:21

Israel is most definitely on trial for genocide. At the end of January the ICC said the South African case against them was plausible and allowed it to continue. They also made multiple interim orders against Israel (which they’ve totally ignored). Warrants for the arrest of the Israeli Prime Minister and Defence Minister for war crimes are in the process of being issued. Olmert is a “moderate” by the rather warped state of Israeli politics but he just believes it’s acceptable to murder Palestinians in industrial quantities, build illegal settlements etc to achieve the aims of the Israeli state. I notice that yesterday 90 Palestinians were killed in an air strike on a refugee camp to attempt to kill one Hamas official. Since October 16,000 children have been slaughtered. This is what the apologists for Israel are supporting.

No. Isreal is not on trial for genocide at the moment.
in an interview on BBC Hard Talk a Justice from the ICJ corrected your misconception. This is a direct quote from that interview:
'I’m glad to have a chance to address that because the court’s test for deciding whether to impose measures uses the idea of plausibility — but the test is the plausibility of the rights that are asserted by the applicant, in this case South Africa. So the court decided that the Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court.
It then looked at the facts as well. But it did not decide — and this is something where I’m correcting what’s often said in the media — it didn’t decide that the claim of genocide was plausible.'

Kriscross · 14/07/2024 22:24

Limesodaagain · 13/07/2024 19:49

Thanks for this.
Totally agree with your final sentence.
I think most people want a two state solution where both sides feel safe.
When people are afraid they behave irrationally Extremist language just increases the fear so if we are serious about peace we need to call it out publicly.

Yes.

AhNowTed · 14/07/2024 22:27

@SingleDadReally

"Olmert is a “moderate” by the rather warped state of Israeli politics but he just believes it’s acceptable to murder Palestinians in industrial quantities, build illegal settlements etc to achieve the aims of the Israeli state"

Neither of those things are true.

He supported Sharon in dismantling the settlements in Gaza in 2005 and subsequent withdrawal, and believes (or did) as far back as 2008 that the settlements should be halted in the West Bank.

He is also voicing his opposition of the Netanyahu governments tacit approval and encouragement of the terrorising of the Palestinians in the West Bank, which is the main point of his article.

Politely, did you read it? I copied it in full in my initial post.

OP posts:
VittuunterroristitFuckterrorists · 14/07/2024 23:08

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ScrollingLeaves · 15/07/2024 00:04

Re:

In the near future a halakhic authority will be found who will locate in the ancient writings the verse or two that will prove Southern Lebanon has always been part of our holy and historic homeland; and from here it is just a short road to a mass settler movement led by Daniella Weiss.

For this delusional goal they are encouraging an all-out war in the north, which is unnecessary and unjustified.

This is the first time I have seen taking over southern Lebanon being mentioned as a goal for for a certain Israeli faction. I had thought Israel was simply being defensive against Lebanon’s aggression.
Does anyone know more about how serous this idea is?

SingleDadReally · 16/07/2024 23:36

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ScrollingLeaves · 17/07/2024 00:04

@SingleDadReally it is abhorrent isn’t it?

You might like to know that another poster has also posted it on the thread, ‘This is the reality of what Israel is doing (4).’

Comedycook · 17/07/2024 07:34

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What? The entire society? Everyone in it?

How about other countries which do objectionable things? Saudi Arabia, North korea, Russia, China? Are those societies 'sick'?

Dulra · 17/07/2024 08:19

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It is an extremely disturbing read, to think such a vulnerable person could be abused and killed in this way. They were zero threat to those soldiers who allowed a dog to attack him, and left him alone bleeding to death.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/07/2024 10:03

Comedycook · 17/07/2024 07:34

What? The entire society? Everyone in it?

How about other countries which do objectionable things? Saudi Arabia, North korea, Russia, China? Are those societies 'sick'?

What? The entire society? Everyone in it?

How about other countries which do objectionable things? Saudi Arabia, North korea, Russia, China? Are those societies 'sick'?

Obviously not everyone in a sick society is’sick’, it is often a leader or a pervading culture making it that way.
Yes, those societies are ‘sick’ in a generalised way of thinking. But I do not think people thought that Israeli society was like those others.

There were many immigrants from Russia from Russia to Israel from the 1990s.

One thing now is that because of modern communications we know much more of horrific acts like this with the attack dog being set on the poor young man with Downs Syndrome.

Comedycook · 17/07/2024 10:05

ScrollingLeaves · 17/07/2024 10:03

What? The entire society? Everyone in it?

How about other countries which do objectionable things? Saudi Arabia, North korea, Russia, China? Are those societies 'sick'?

Obviously not everyone in a sick society is’sick’, it is often a leader or a pervading culture making it that way.
Yes, those societies are ‘sick’ in a generalised way of thinking. But I do not think people thought that Israeli society was like those others.

There were many immigrants from Russia from Russia to Israel from the 1990s.

One thing now is that because of modern communications we know much more of horrific acts like this with the attack dog being set on the poor young man with Downs Syndrome.

There is a massive difference between discussing an incident/criticising an army or government and labelling a whole society as 'sick'.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/07/2024 10:16

Comedycook · 17/07/2024 10:05

There is a massive difference between discussing an incident/criticising an army or government and labelling a whole society as 'sick'.

I agree on principle , but when the incidents of atrocities mount up, and it no longer seems to be because of rogue individuals, and no one higher up stops them, then
it is that society’s problem.

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