"A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians" Former PM Ehud Olmert

[AhNowTed]

I realise a lot of folks can't access links, so the text is faithfully copied.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

Former PM Ehud Olmert

A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians

Arrest warrants will be issued against Israel's political leaders and military commanders – but it is the State of Israel itself that will be put on trial in the end

Almost every day I watch an interview on television with a relative of one of the fallen "wearers of knitted-kippot." Yes, "wearers of knitted-kippot" is the most precise description for these members of the religious Zionist community. Not settlers, not messianists, not annexationists. Heroes. No group in Israel exhibits greater determination, sacrifice, identification, courage and a willingness for combat than they do.

There are others like them – non-religious soldiers from moshavim and kibbutzim; city people from Tel Aviv, Netanya, Herzliya, Haifa, Be'er Sheva and other cities; and those from the periphery, from Kiryat Shmona to Eilat – but none more than them. The number of fallen soldiers among the religious Zionist community well exceeds their percentage among the general population.

We can't ignore this fact, and we mustn't obscure or devalue it. The military is fighting with amazing daring, courage and sacrifice, in part because of the contribution of these soldiers, and those like them. When we speak about togetherness, national unity and solidarity – I'm with them. On the battlefield, the unity exists and strengthens them.

But sometimes when I hear these relatives of the fallen and those abducted – some of them, but not all – my heart breaks and the feeling of unity cracks. Many of them don't want a hostage deal. Their children are hostages and every day they could well pay with their lives. Their fate is unclear, their sanity and psychological resilience are being put to a harsh test, but they think the need for total victory, destruction of Hamas and the destruction of Gaza – along with the unavoidable deaths of many of the hostages, and necessarily also the death of Palestinians who have no connection to Hamas terrorism and may even be its victims as well – stands at the top of the list of priorities. I don't feel unity with this approach.

None of them say it explicitly, but I get the impression that the public figures from the believing, settler community that yearns to settle Gaza and Lebanonand are able to contend with the danger of death to their children – when they are standing with admirable, but also revulsive, determination in their demands to continue the fighting and total victory, they will not have any difficulty containing the burning of Palestinian communities and property of completely innocent Palestinians.

Many of them justify the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and call to expand the fighting in the north, so they can continue the work of destruction and obliteration in the West Bank. All of this on the way to fulfill the greater dream of liberating parts of the Land of Israel and expelling Palestinians, in advance of annexation of all the territories and turning Israel into an apartheid state that will be boycotted and ostracized by the entire world.

This is the dream of thousands of settlers, young people called "hilltop youth" and many others who support them, push them, cover up for them and hide them. Many of the local leaders in Judea and Samaria pay lip service and are filled with self-righteousness. They ignore the data published by the reliable investigative press (for example, Ronen Bergman and staff of The New York Times) and UN agencies, U.S. State Department and the U.S. National Security Council. "It's not that bad," they say. "Exaggerated," and "no foundation for the accusations."

There is a basis. I believe the words of the outgoing head of the IDF Central Command, Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fuchs, a brave soldier, an admirable commander, when he speaks with candor and openness about what his eyes saw in the occupied territories at our hands. He is not delusional and has not invented anything. He saw, his soldiers saw. And everyone knows about the reports on the settlers – not all of them, maybe not even the majority, but a very impressive number of them – who attack, loot, destroy, ruin, burn and kill innocent people – and also attack Israeli soldiers who are unwilling to lend a hand to their crimes.

Often present at the riots in these places are officers from the Border Police. I know many of their commanders in the past and present. They are among the most courageous, determined and daring of Israel's soldiers. But it is impossible to blur the facts that many of them close one eye, and sometimes even two, when criminal acts by Jewish rioters are taking place right next to them. How many of these rioters are arrested? How many of them are put on trial? How many of them are punished according to the severity of their actions? A marginal number. Almost certainly less than the number of protesters thrown to the ground, beaten and humiliated by Ben-Gvir's police officers.

None of this could have happened without the inspiration, back up and support given by the country's most senior leaders. First and foremost, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of TikTok, who controls the government like a violent bully. And along with him, Bezalel Smotrich, the minister for the territories in the Defense Ministry. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir support the settling of the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon by Jewish settlers. In the near future a halakhic authority will be found who will locate in the ancient writings the verse or two that will prove Southern Lebanon has always been part of our holy and historic homeland; and from here it is just a short road to a mass settler movement led by Daniella Weiss.

For this delusional goal they are encouraging an all-out war in the north, which is unnecessary and unjustified. Instead, we need to reach an agreement with the Lebanese government, to agree to minor border adjustments, which do not harm any historic Jewish property, and constitute no real security threat to Israel; and to bring about a withdrawal of Hezbollah forces dozens of kilometers from the Israeli border near the Litani River, as we did in practice after the Second Lebanon War. And the most important thing: We must return the residents of the north to their homes and rebuild their communities.

This government wants a war in the north to advance its great dream – a war of everyone against everyone, mutual destruction, expulsion of Palestinians and annexing the territories to Israel.

Given all this, I am warning you:

I am warning Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: The day is drawing near when arrest warrants will be issued against you for the crimes being carried out every day in Judea and Samaria by Israel, with the support of its government, while you intentionally turn a blind eye to it. The events in Gaza can be defended, because it's possible to claim they are not a result of policy, order or intention by Israel, not even by you. In the worst case, as we all know, you are not really managing, leading or directing. After all, you're not responsible for anything.

But these arguments won't be available to you concerning events in Judea and Samaria. Here crimes are committed on a daily basis, not by soldiers and not against soldiers, but by rioters who are Israeli citizens, Arab haters, with the clear intention of expelling them from their homes and the villages where they have lived all their lives.

As prime minister, you know about all these events. If you choose to ignore them too, you won't be able to deny you heard the warning of the head of the Central Command and other senior IDF commanders. I have spoken with a few of them and they are ashamed that these things are happening in areas under our control.

When these accusations are made against you, Mr. Prime Minister, not a single person with a conscience will be found among us, or in the international arena that supports us, who will be able to defend you.

I am also warning Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, for whom there will also be an arrest warrant. He is responsible for security, he can act and struggle against the reckless policies of Netanyahu and Smotrich, who is in charge of the territories in the Defense Ministry. Gallant prefers to be addicted to the continuation of the war in Gaza, to the warnings and threats of Hezbollah, and closes his eyes to what is happening in the territories under his responsibility.

I am warning Ben-Gvir, the minister of threats, incitement and supporting the hilltop youth – you won't avoid arrest warrants. Given the incitement, division and bullying that you unleash against the army commanders and specifically the chief of staff, the Shin Bet chief and Mossad warriors, you deserve arrest warrants from the attorney general. But even if she won't do it, you'll get arrest warrants from the International Criminal Court for the responsibility you bear and of which you are even proud.

I am warning Smotrich, who is actively extending the war and blocking negotiations for a hostage-release deal, encourages settling Gaza, inspires the hilltop youth, and supports Jewish settlement in southern Lebanon and total war in the north, the expected result of which will be the destruction and death of thousands of citizens among us and among them. Arrest warrants await you, too.

I am warning the police, Border Police and army commanders. You won't be able to shirk responsibility for the crimes being committed against the Palestinians in the territories. Arrest warrants will also be issued against you, and you'll have no real response.

Indeed, arrest warrants will be issued against the prime minister, leaders, cabinet ministers and commanders personally – but it is the State of Israel that will be tried in the end. All this at a time when Israel wants to end the war, return the hostages, withdraw from Gaza, bring in an international force, Arab or European, that will preserve the gains from the war that will prevent Hamas from rehabilitating and returning to power in Gaza. Israel wants to launch negotiations with the Palestinians over a peace deal between them and us, and the establishment of a nonmilitarized Palestinian state as part of a regional agreement that will create a stable, strong and reliable axis. Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, Saudi Arabia and the United States would form the base of and stand as the backbone of regional security against Iran.

I issue this warning because if we continue to reconcile with crimes against the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, serious and painful sanctions will be levied against Israel, and we won't have a good defense.

I don't agree that reporting things is necessarily the right thing to do. As there is so much uncertainty and ignorance around these issues far better to call out and discuss so people can learn and develop their ideas and understanding.
Well I feel the opposite on these threads if I find something is offensive I'll report and get it deleted if mnhq agrees with me. What I don't do is criticise other posters for apparent inaction. When I see something that may be antisemitic, rightly or wrongly I pass it by, assuming a poster that knows and understands better than me will report or address it. No one engaged with that poster or agreed with them but I still get criticised and called a "dog whistler" by one poster which I still don't quite understand.

My point about posting as individuals and not in a pack was that you referred to posters in the plural without actually naming the poster you were talking about as if we were some kind of collective, which we're not.

• Do you have any points to discuss regarding the article by the former PM Ehud Olmer, as he is not being anti-semitic?*

Honestly?

I was just bookmarking it to come back and read properly, because it did seem interesting and substantial, but my attention was grabbed by the first reply on the thread, which was glaringly, comically stupid, inaccurate, bigoted...

Then what honestly makes my skin crawl is the way most of the posters on the thread just want to step over the very obvious anti semitic dog whistle and pretend it didn't happen. Since when is it okay to let any form of racism slide quietly past?

The minimum there needs to be for a long term peace is agreement that both Islamophobia and antisemitism are beyond the pale. Then there needs to be flexibility and empathy. Then discourse.

But apparently these basics aren't even achievable on an MN talk board.

I still get criticised and called a "dog whistler"

I didn't call you a dog whistler.

I asked you if you could not hear the chorus of dog whistling.

Two entirely different things.

Yes, appreciate it @PeasfullPerson

Absolutely.

Not that I think I have a "side" in this.

You do specialise in this faux naivety Dulra so I guess my policy in this is specially for people like you. You have been heavily involved in many threads on the CITME board and yet you still don't recognise antisemitism? How can anyone take that claim seriously? You have literally admitted to passing by antisemitic posts & leaving it to others to address or report them. Amazing.

You said 'We don’t know the ins and outs of the history of the region because it’s quite far away.' The kindest thing I can say is that that is a silly comment that is not borne out by the evidence on how people engage with history. Can I just be clear on the point you are trying to make though - are you saying that the Jewish people don't originally come from that region?

What I said (I think this is the third time) was that Christians are taught (from the Old Testament) that the Jews travelled to the promised land (Israel) highlights like manna falling from heaven along the way to keep them going etc etc. I don’t think the majority of people DO fallow the politics of regions beyond their immediate neighbour countries or know the ins and outs of their history. If you feel people “engage with history” or politics in a different way then that’s fair enough, we can disagree. I would imagine we travel in very different circles.

This thread has been hijacked from the outset, completely ignoring the article by the former Israeli PM, because a poster came on and made inflammatory remarks that were only vaguely related to the original article.

Maybe that person’s remarks need a thread so that then people can add or look up all the facts about the numbers of Jewish people who were indigenous, when and in what numbers they returned, the Zionist movement, how they were expelled by other Arab countries after 1948, how England gave a homeland for Jews after WW11 because England and America were at least originally not welcoming to Jewish people.

There have been some threads about this and I remember a detailed one.

Then people could get back to the points made in the OP. There is always the chance of someone coming on a thread and causing trouble. One way to deal with them is to ignore them, or someone can report them.

You have literally admitted to passing by antisemitic posts & leaving it to others to address or report them. Amazing.

That is literally true but not at all in the spirit of what Dulra was trying to convey. As for ‘Amazing’ that is a prodding rhetorical device in the context.

You do specialise in this faux naivety Dulra

No I don't! I don't fake anything I am always upfront and honest with my posts. So you need to point out where I've demonstrated this "faux naivety" so I can consider it and respond to it. Throwing out an accusation like that without evidence is unfair.

You have been heavily involved in many threads on the CITME board and yet you still don't recognise antisemitism? How can anyone take that claim seriously? You have literally admitted to passing by antisemitic posts & leaving it to others to address or report them. Amazing.
Talk about twisting what I said. Amazing. Back thread I responded to you when you were calling out antisemitism, I suggested reporting the post you chose not to. I then said I don't engage or respond to those posts I report them, I don't call that not recognising antisemitism or leaving things to others to address.

You really can't win here. You have derailed an entire thread because of one troll maybe next time report it and get it deleted rather than attacking every other poster on the thread

I think knowing when to leave a post and when to delete is genuinely difficult especially if you value free speech & discussion, as I do. In this case, if it had been my thread (ie if I was the OP) I would have been horrified that that was the first comment as I would know it would set the tone & therefore be exclusionary. I would have either posted something to say it was not my view and please stick to the point or requested it was deleted. Otherwise it does look like someone delegitimising the right of Jewish people to live in Israel is not being challenged. This is not a fringe issue but fundamental to all the discussions around the conflict.

P.S. i won't say any more & hopefully the thread can get back on track.

This.

If members of the Israeli government are charged by the Hague then they stand trial. However, this war wouldn't be ongoing now if October 7th didn't occur. People will do the whataboutery that problems have been going on longer etc, BUT this conflict with Israel chasing diwn Hamas in Gaza would not be happening if October 7th didn't.

I appreciate what you are saying, except imo the pointing out of the right of Jews to live in Israel, where Jewish people were given a homeland by Britain in 1948, inevitably begs the historical context too, including, and then this might inevitably bring in what ( some would believe) has gone wrong too - each time in the middle of a thread about some other aspect.

Needing to say Oct 7 was an outrage in every post, criticising something about an Israeli bombing, say, is another thing not quite the same, but similar.

Quite often criticism of Israel is accused of being anti-semitic on these threads, seemingly, sometimes, at the same time as treating the right of Israel to bomb Gaza and civilians is taken as fine and ‘normal’ - because of Oct 7, “because Palestinians want to kill all Jews”. So, this is a difficult aspect to contend with when it arises. In this thread the ex Israeli PM was expressing concern over harm to Palestinians at Israel’s policies regarding colonising, illegal settlers in the West Bank but this was ignored because of the poster treating the founding of the Jewish homeland as being wrong.

It is officially recognised I think, that saying Jews should not have a homeland in Israel is anti-Semitic. Maybe Mumsnet should give a guideline on this?

People will believe, however, that rights are for Palestinians too, even if they are not officially protected in the same way with a similar word to anti-semitic to connote the will to cause harm to Palestinians.

Everything you've said is antisemitic. MN really is getting worse.

I am horrified. The former PMs article is important, and it's deeply depressing to see 60-odd posts later the subject of the thread completely undiscussed, and someone comes along with a post based on binary good/bad tropes so ridiculous in the context of a deeply complex conflict, and that I thought we'd all done to death months ago, and completely derails it. It's exhausting.

Where is the outrage that Israel just bombed the tents in Mawasi? A barren land that they designated as a safe zone and forced civilians to move to
Where is the outrage that today children have been blown to pieces after they were told it was safe there?
Where is the outrage when the horrors inflicted on the Palestinians are constantly minimised?

The hypocrisy of selected outrage is stark and apparent to see.

The 'whataboutery' you minimise is exactly the subject of the former PMs article.

This.

Plus there is now no drinking water in Northern Gaza.

I know the former PM’s article is mainly focussed upon other areas such as the West Bank, but preventing the delivery of diesel to Gaza (needed to pump the water) is surely clearly another war crime.

but they think the need for total victory, destruction of Hamas and the destruction of Gaza – along with the unavoidable deaths of many of the hostages, and necessarily also the death of Palestinians who have no connection to Hamas terrorism and may even be its victims as well – stands at the top of the list of priorities

These people shouldn't be afforded any defence.

Are you suggesting

A) that hamas were justified in their attack on 7th October due to history?
Or
B) that this conflict would still have happened if hamas hadn't had carried out 7th October, eg Israel would have gone in anyway. I don't think this would have happened, hence my point! I doubt many people would think this current conflict with Israel in Gaza searching for Hamas would have happened had it not been for 7th October.

Or are you just ignoring my point completely and going off to something else. In which case why tag and reply unless you are going to address the point it's pointless.

People will believe, however, that rights are for Palestinians too, even if they are not officially protected in the same way with a similar word to anti-semitic to connote the will to cause harm to Palestinians

OFC they will @ScrollingLeaves

I'm sure most people support existing and extended rights for all the civilians on both sides. And a successful resumption of at least tentative peace and even a full reinvigorated peace process. Etc. Etc.

I promise you this isn't some rhetorical chess some of us are playing. If you really can't hear it, you can't. But it's obviously glaring to a lot of people too. That's the nature of dog whistles, I guess.

@LiterallyOnFire

"I'm sure most people support existing and extended rights for all the civilians on both sides. And a successful resumption of at least tentative peace and even a full reinvigorated peace process. Etc. Etc."

Yes, I believe this too.

I am suggesting no such thing.

Are you seeking to minimise what is and has been happening to the innocent Palestinians on the West Bank – what you claim is ‘whataboutery’, which is the subject of the article by the former PM.

I am not ‘ignoring your point’. Your point amounts to “they started it”, which has been made hundreds of times on this board.

Did you read the article, and have you anything to contribute?

Very interesting read OP. i have started to think there will be no accountability for the actions of the Israeli government. I assumed there will be no sanctions because the US will just use their veto at the UN. I have settled on the depressing conclusion that Gaza will be decimated and few will survive, and then it will be the West Bank. I had not really considered the situation with Lebanon, I have to conclude, however, that Olmert knows much more than I do, and there may be some consequences for the situation in the West Bank and the conduct of the Gaza campaign. I think it's encouraging, at the least, that he does believe the behaviour of settlers in the West Bank, and the encouragement of this by some Israeli politicians, should be challenged. Was he a popular prime minister, does anyone know? And might his opinion have any influence on the political establishment?

Good question.

He is a centrist, and advocates for a two-state solution.

I can't answer how he is viewed in Israel or whether his words will resonate. Or indeed how high his profile is in Israel.

Maybe some other posters could comment?

Quick synopsis here: www.britannica.com/biography/Ehud-Olmert