"A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians" Former PM Ehud Olmert

[AhNowTed]

I realise a lot of folks can't access links, so the text is faithfully copied.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

Former PM Ehud Olmert

A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians

Arrest warrants will be issued against Israel's political leaders and military commanders – but it is the State of Israel itself that will be put on trial in the end

Almost every day I watch an interview on television with a relative of one of the fallen "wearers of knitted-kippot." Yes, "wearers of knitted-kippot" is the most precise description for these members of the religious Zionist community. Not settlers, not messianists, not annexationists. Heroes. No group in Israel exhibits greater determination, sacrifice, identification, courage and a willingness for combat than they do.

There are others like them – non-religious soldiers from moshavim and kibbutzim; city people from Tel Aviv, Netanya, Herzliya, Haifa, Be'er Sheva and other cities; and those from the periphery, from Kiryat Shmona to Eilat – but none more than them. The number of fallen soldiers among the religious Zionist community well exceeds their percentage among the general population.

We can't ignore this fact, and we mustn't obscure or devalue it. The military is fighting with amazing daring, courage and sacrifice, in part because of the contribution of these soldiers, and those like them. When we speak about togetherness, national unity and solidarity – I'm with them. On the battlefield, the unity exists and strengthens them.

But sometimes when I hear these relatives of the fallen and those abducted – some of them, but not all – my heart breaks and the feeling of unity cracks. Many of them don't want a hostage deal. Their children are hostages and every day they could well pay with their lives. Their fate is unclear, their sanity and psychological resilience are being put to a harsh test, but they think the need for total victory, destruction of Hamas and the destruction of Gaza – along with the unavoidable deaths of many of the hostages, and necessarily also the death of Palestinians who have no connection to Hamas terrorism and may even be its victims as well – stands at the top of the list of priorities. I don't feel unity with this approach.

None of them say it explicitly, but I get the impression that the public figures from the believing, settler community that yearns to settle Gaza and Lebanonand are able to contend with the danger of death to their children – when they are standing with admirable, but also revulsive, determination in their demands to continue the fighting and total victory, they will not have any difficulty containing the burning of Palestinian communities and property of completely innocent Palestinians.

Many of them justify the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and call to expand the fighting in the north, so they can continue the work of destruction and obliteration in the West Bank. All of this on the way to fulfill the greater dream of liberating parts of the Land of Israel and expelling Palestinians, in advance of annexation of all the territories and turning Israel into an apartheid state that will be boycotted and ostracized by the entire world.

This is the dream of thousands of settlers, young people called "hilltop youth" and many others who support them, push them, cover up for them and hide them. Many of the local leaders in Judea and Samaria pay lip service and are filled with self-righteousness. They ignore the data published by the reliable investigative press (for example, Ronen Bergman and staff of The New York Times) and UN agencies, U.S. State Department and the U.S. National Security Council. "It's not that bad," they say. "Exaggerated," and "no foundation for the accusations."

There is a basis. I believe the words of the outgoing head of the IDF Central Command, Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fuchs, a brave soldier, an admirable commander, when he speaks with candor and openness about what his eyes saw in the occupied territories at our hands. He is not delusional and has not invented anything. He saw, his soldiers saw. And everyone knows about the reports on the settlers – not all of them, maybe not even the majority, but a very impressive number of them – who attack, loot, destroy, ruin, burn and kill innocent people – and also attack Israeli soldiers who are unwilling to lend a hand to their crimes.

Often present at the riots in these places are officers from the Border Police. I know many of their commanders in the past and present. They are among the most courageous, determined and daring of Israel's soldiers. But it is impossible to blur the facts that many of them close one eye, and sometimes even two, when criminal acts by Jewish rioters are taking place right next to them. How many of these rioters are arrested? How many of them are put on trial? How many of them are punished according to the severity of their actions? A marginal number. Almost certainly less than the number of protesters thrown to the ground, beaten and humiliated by Ben-Gvir's police officers.

None of this could have happened without the inspiration, back up and support given by the country's most senior leaders. First and foremost, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of TikTok, who controls the government like a violent bully. And along with him, Bezalel Smotrich, the minister for the territories in the Defense Ministry. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir support the settling of the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon by Jewish settlers. In the near future a halakhic authority will be found who will locate in the ancient writings the verse or two that will prove Southern Lebanon has always been part of our holy and historic homeland; and from here it is just a short road to a mass settler movement led by Daniella Weiss.

For this delusional goal they are encouraging an all-out war in the north, which is unnecessary and unjustified. Instead, we need to reach an agreement with the Lebanese government, to agree to minor border adjustments, which do not harm any historic Jewish property, and constitute no real security threat to Israel; and to bring about a withdrawal of Hezbollah forces dozens of kilometers from the Israeli border near the Litani River, as we did in practice after the Second Lebanon War. And the most important thing: We must return the residents of the north to their homes and rebuild their communities.

This government wants a war in the north to advance its great dream – a war of everyone against everyone, mutual destruction, expulsion of Palestinians and annexing the territories to Israel.

Given all this, I am warning you:

I am warning Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: The day is drawing near when arrest warrants will be issued against you for the crimes being carried out every day in Judea and Samaria by Israel, with the support of its government, while you intentionally turn a blind eye to it. The events in Gaza can be defended, because it's possible to claim they are not a result of policy, order or intention by Israel, not even by you. In the worst case, as we all know, you are not really managing, leading or directing. After all, you're not responsible for anything.

But these arguments won't be available to you concerning events in Judea and Samaria. Here crimes are committed on a daily basis, not by soldiers and not against soldiers, but by rioters who are Israeli citizens, Arab haters, with the clear intention of expelling them from their homes and the villages where they have lived all their lives.

As prime minister, you know about all these events. If you choose to ignore them too, you won't be able to deny you heard the warning of the head of the Central Command and other senior IDF commanders. I have spoken with a few of them and they are ashamed that these things are happening in areas under our control.

When these accusations are made against you, Mr. Prime Minister, not a single person with a conscience will be found among us, or in the international arena that supports us, who will be able to defend you.

I am also warning Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, for whom there will also be an arrest warrant. He is responsible for security, he can act and struggle against the reckless policies of Netanyahu and Smotrich, who is in charge of the territories in the Defense Ministry. Gallant prefers to be addicted to the continuation of the war in Gaza, to the warnings and threats of Hezbollah, and closes his eyes to what is happening in the territories under his responsibility.

I am warning Ben-Gvir, the minister of threats, incitement and supporting the hilltop youth – you won't avoid arrest warrants. Given the incitement, division and bullying that you unleash against the army commanders and specifically the chief of staff, the Shin Bet chief and Mossad warriors, you deserve arrest warrants from the attorney general. But even if she won't do it, you'll get arrest warrants from the International Criminal Court for the responsibility you bear and of which you are even proud.

I am warning Smotrich, who is actively extending the war and blocking negotiations for a hostage-release deal, encourages settling Gaza, inspires the hilltop youth, and supports Jewish settlement in southern Lebanon and total war in the north, the expected result of which will be the destruction and death of thousands of citizens among us and among them. Arrest warrants await you, too.

I am warning the police, Border Police and army commanders. You won't be able to shirk responsibility for the crimes being committed against the Palestinians in the territories. Arrest warrants will also be issued against you, and you'll have no real response.

Indeed, arrest warrants will be issued against the prime minister, leaders, cabinet ministers and commanders personally – but it is the State of Israel that will be tried in the end. All this at a time when Israel wants to end the war, return the hostages, withdraw from Gaza, bring in an international force, Arab or European, that will preserve the gains from the war that will prevent Hamas from rehabilitating and returning to power in Gaza. Israel wants to launch negotiations with the Palestinians over a peace deal between them and us, and the establishment of a nonmilitarized Palestinian state as part of a regional agreement that will create a stable, strong and reliable axis. Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, Saudi Arabia and the United States would form the base of and stand as the backbone of regional security against Iran.

I issue this warning because if we continue to reconcile with crimes against the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, serious and painful sanctions will be levied against Israel, and we won't have a good defense.

No, that's not quite how it works. Again with the whole "if I say something enough times someone will eventually believe me". You should really give it a rest.

Also, not all settlers in the West Bank are illegal. There is a distinction. You should look it up! You might learn something.

Peace goes two ways. There's no point in calling for peace from the Israelis without calling for it from the Palestinians and their supporters too.

Of course this is true, peace goes two ways but at the moment that is pretty immaterial isn't it? Israel are illegally occupying Palestinian territory, they are through a wide range of policies breaching International law and operating discriminatory policies against Palestinians. Stopping this has to be the starting point. Israel have to be that starting point, they are the ones in power, they are the ones illegally occupying, illegally annexing land, illegally discriminating against Palestinians, illegally taking natural resources and profiting off their illegal occupation, all of this was in the ICJs preliminary ruling this week, a ruling that the EU are supporting. Anyone even slightly implying that Palestinians should only get their rights if they behave well enough should take a long hard look at themselves.

The whole point of some countries earlier this year recognising Palestine was to try and equalise the power imbalance before talks begin, it absolutely has to be 2 equals at the negotiating table, not a situation where Israel says if you behave the way we want we will allow you your rights, that's just wrong, human rights are something that should be inherent regardless of race or ethnicity, not something that can be used as a bargaining chip by illegal occupiers.

@AhNowTed is absolutely right when she says What matters now is that Palestinians have their own state that is not the whim of Israel. because there can be no other starting point to peace.

I'm not saying that in the long term there doesn't have to be an agreement from Palestinians to end the violence, that is just as important as Israel agreeing to end the violence but the first step has to be that Palestinians are legally recognised as equal.

How do you think it works? Genuine question. If you don't think giving Palestinians their own state so they are equal to Israel is the first step then what do you think should be the first step? Do you think that Israel should be allowed to use withdrawing their illegal occupation as a bargaining chip at the negotiating table rather than it just being something that Palestinians are entitled to in the same way Israelis are entitled to their own state?

@Humdingerydoo @SharonEllis

I'll have to go on to my PC to address your points properly. Difficult on the app.

Bear with ...

@Buddysbunda At the moment, the first step needs to be to release all the hostages so the violence has even a chance of stopping. The rest can follow. You can't start negotiations with "here, have a country led by terrorists who say in their official charter that they reserve the right to one day take over all of Israel by any means necessary".

To avoid a lengthy debate on this as certain posters on this thread genuinely make me feel sick so I'm quite keen to get off it now (not you, others) - I am for a two state solution. I always have been. I want two peaceful states side by side, hopefully with various trade agreements etc as well. I want them to not just be neighbours but to help prop each other up. I don't hate Palestinians and I think they should have a right to self-determination.

I also think certain posters on here do Palestinians an absolute disservice by being so full of lies and absolutely revolting irrational hatred and pretending it's in the name of Palestinians. Those aren't the kind of allies anyone needs. Palestinians deserve a whole lot better than that.

I get what you are saying but I don't see how punishing all Palestinians for the acts of Hamas is the answer. Palestinians deserve a state, just like Israelis do, I don't think it should come with caveats just like I don't think Israels existence should come with caveats, it should just be. Joe Bloggs Palestinian shouldn't be discriminated against because of Hamas no more than Joe Bloggs Israeli should be discriminated against because of the Israeli government.

I absolutely think the hostages should be released and I absolutely think the current conflict should end but it is a bit of a separate discussion to a state being denied it's existence by Israel. If we make excuses for such a basic right to be denied it leads down a dangerous path.

Yes, Palestinians deserve a whole lot better.

Personally I've posted numerous times for numerous instances about settler violence (accompanied and protected by the IDF, ie Israel) against the defenceless Palestinians, complete with video.

Personally I’ve posted about the obscene conditions and unimaginable injuries in what remains of the Gaza hospitals, by impartial doctors from America. Including half-dead children with obscene wounds covered in maggots.

Personally I’ve posted an article by a former Israeli PM calling out atrocities, and warning the current government they are guilty of apartheid.

Sorry but tell me which bit is “so full of lies”?

This is an excerpt from a Guardian the other day, which I think is relevant to the OP.
About 40% of those graduating from the army’s infantry officer schools now come from a national religious community that accounts for 12 to 14% of Jewish Israeli society and is politically more aligned with Israel’s right and far-right political parties and the settler movement. Critics charge that its growing influence – including from the more orthodox portion known as Hardalim – is pursuing its own agenda within the army.

The views of the national religious community are shaped by the teachings of Abraham Isaac Kook, the first Ashkenazi chief rabbi of pre-state British Mandatory Palestine, who saw the foundation and settlement of the “land of Israel” as a divine mission. For today’s national religious community, that land also encompasses the West Bank and in Gaza.

^Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, 1924.
The war in Gaza has seen some soldiers from the community, including officers, involved in statements and religious activities promoting the Jewish resettlement of the Palestinian territory that have drawn rebukes from the senior leadership of the Israel Defense Forces.^

^Known as national religious, religious Zionist or, colloquially, “knitted kippah” (for the style of head covering favoured by men), the community stands in contrast to the ultra-Orthodox Jews, known as Haredi,who have long resisted military service. They see the army as a route to promote values that some of its key thinkers say are in tension with more secular and progressive Israeli society.
“That’s [secular and progressive Israelis’] fear, that if the national religious are in the most influential positions in the army, that not only will determine the character of the fighting but also the character of Israeli society as a whole,” said Rabbi Oury Cherki, a prominent spiritual leader in the national religious community.^
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/18/national-religious-recruits-challenge-values-of-idf-secular-elite

I wasn't talking about your posts 🤦🏻‍♀️

I think we agree on most things, just not what the starting point should be under the current circumstances. We seem to want the same things. So I'm happy to leave it there. Not much more to say, really.

Sorry, but I'm not going back 9 months to teach folks about this stuff.

Seriously, if you think millions of Palestinians have no right to be there, other than by Israel's whim or gift, I suggest you read something.

If that sounds harsh, so be it.

Your post is childish at best, and offensive at worst.

I'm not sure it is separate. In any negotiation you have to look at what each side is afraid of and no negotiating will progress without adressing those fears. Hamas is in charge of Gaza and perpetrated oct 7 which was an attack of genocidal intent. It leaves a genuine practical problem of who negotiates for the Palestinians. Not an insurmountable one, but a complicating one. Noone here is arguing against a 2 state solution (except the antizionist but I hope we're agreed that eliminating Israel is not on the table).

A Palestine state is not something Israel has a veto over. It’s something the Palestinians are entitled to as a right of self determination. What Israel thinks about it is irrelevant. The first step is for Israel to withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza, take all their settlers and violent paraphernalia with them and stop murdering Palestinians and stealing their land. Then they’re entitled to be negotiated with. This is the opinion the ICJ gave last week. Any agreement regarding Oslo is dead, principally broken and obstructed by Israel.

BoilingWithAnger · Today 01:45
Also wasn’t Ehud Olmert jailed for accepting bribes after while Israeli PM? Wasn’t he likened to a traitor? Funny how other politicians convicted of crimes such as corruption in public office wouldn’t be given much respect or platform on the world stage but he is.

I thought it was well known that Netanyahu
is facing charges of bribery, breach of trust, and fraud, and some think this is why he keeps the war going as otherwise he would need to face the charges? He seems to be very much on the world stage.

Ben-Givr his minister has a criminal past, including convictions for incitement to racism and supporting a terror organization.

This.

It is absolutely sickening that on a parenting forum with a majority of women contributors, you can get away with openly saying that raping, sexually torturing and mutilating women, tying babies to their parents with wire and burning them alive, dismembering body parts of children while they are still alive, hacking off someone’s head with a garden hoe and taking babies and elderly people hostage, is legitimate armed resistance.

@BoilingWithAnger
Conversely I think on a parenting website, I cannot comprehend anybody male or female who support a democratic country that allows it's soldiers to behave in a way that is barbaric and cruel. That targets women and children for annihilation in the most bloodthirsty way. I could list the many vile acts that amazing posters here have told us about but I simply do not have the energy.

In that vein I feel you must be reading different posts to me. I have read this forum for a long time now and bar one or two exceptions, posters who are "pro Palestine" have widely condemned Hamas and their disgusting actions, have hoped for release of the hostages and have never celebrated the death of an Israeli person.

Unfortunately and I may be wrong so will be happy to be corrected those who are pro Israeli government ignore all posts detailing atrocities (except to post a random X comment from a dubious account denying the action).

Israel have been doing all of the above, and more, for decades, with impunity. This has been recorded by human rights organizations and NGOs. It's always very interesting that the starting point is always expected to be with the Palestinians. There are nearly 4,000 Palestinian hostages in Israeli prisons, under administrative detention. This breaches international law. Of course Israel cry "antisemite!" when questioned about any of their illegal activities, that they continue to carry out in broad daylight. It's also very interesting that those on here who are pro Israeli never acknowledge the crimes Israel commit. The first stage of any peace process is acknowledgement.

Right, so pro-Israelis are expected to constantly acknowledge any Israeli crimes but those who claim to be pro-Palestinian but are actually anti-Israel don't need to constantly acknowledge or mention Palestinian crimes because it is obvious that they condemn them? Why can't pro-Israelis be given the same benefit of the doubt?

And the Palestinians held in Israeli prisons are prisoners, not hostages. You will get a lot further with us "pro-Israelis" if you stop using unnecessarily inflammatory language designed to get our backs up. Because unsurprisingly, all you're achieving is getting our backs up. Like when your accuse Israel, or us personally on other threads, of crying anti-Semite. All you're doing is making things worse for everyone by encouraging further disinformation and hatred.

It is not only Israel who needs to acknowledge wrongdoing - the Palestinians need to as well. Acknowledging that both sides hurt and that both sides have caused pain is where peace starts. If it's actual peace you want that is. Peace doesn't come from one side giving in to all the other sides demands.

@Humdingerydoo no not at all, but as per your post and many others it's usually "the Palestinians need to...." as if Israel are the hapless victims. Administrative detainees do not have prisoner status under international law, it is actually a contravention of the law to imprison anyone without charge indefinitely. I'm not trying to get anyone's "back up", this is an internet forum, it doesn't really count for anything.

All you're doing is making things worse for everyone by encouraging further disinformation and hatred

Again this line has been trotted out so many times, needlessly. It just comes across as another DARVO attempt, along with the "lacking in critical thinking". I'm genuinely not trying to encourage any hatred or disinformation.