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Conflict in the Middle East

"A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians" Former PM Ehud Olmert

202 replies

AhNowTed · 12/07/2024 17:25

I realise a lot of folks can't access links, so the text is faithfully copied.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

Former PM Ehud Olmert

A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians

Arrest warrants will be issued against Israel's political leaders and military commanders – but it is the State of Israel itself that will be put on trial in the end

Almost every day I watch an interview on television with a relative of one of the fallen "wearers of knitted-kippot." Yes, "wearers of knitted-kippot" is the most precise description for these members of the religious Zionist community. Not settlers, not messianists, not annexationists. Heroes. No group in Israel exhibits greater determination, sacrifice, identification, courage and a willingness for combat than they do.

There are others like them – non-religious soldiers from moshavim and kibbutzim; city people from Tel Aviv, Netanya, Herzliya, Haifa, Be'er Sheva and other cities; and those from the periphery, from Kiryat Shmona to Eilat – but none more than them. The number of fallen soldiers among the religious Zionist community well exceeds their percentage among the general population.

We can't ignore this fact, and we mustn't obscure or devalue it. The military is fighting with amazing daring, courage and sacrifice, in part because of the contribution of these soldiers, and those like them. When we speak about togetherness, national unity and solidarity – I'm with them. On the battlefield, the unity exists and strengthens them.

But sometimes when I hear these relatives of the fallen and those abducted – some of them, but not all – my heart breaks and the feeling of unity cracks. Many of them don't want a hostage deal. Their children are hostages and every day they could well pay with their lives. Their fate is unclear, their sanity and psychological resilience are being put to a harsh test, but they think the need for total victory, destruction of Hamas and the destruction of Gaza – along with the unavoidable deaths of many of the hostages, and necessarily also the death of Palestinians who have no connection to Hamas terrorism and may even be its victims as well – stands at the top of the list of priorities. I don't feel unity with this approach.

None of them say it explicitly, but I get the impression that the public figures from the believing, settler community that yearns to settle Gaza and Lebanonand are able to contend with the danger of death to their children – when they are standing with admirable, but also revulsive, determination in their demands to continue the fighting and total victory, they will not have any difficulty containing the burning of Palestinian communities and property of completely innocent Palestinians.

Many of them justify the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and call to expand the fighting in the north, so they can continue the work of destruction and obliteration in the West Bank. All of this on the way to fulfill the greater dream of liberating parts of the Land of Israel and expelling Palestinians, in advance of annexation of all the territories and turning Israel into an apartheid state that will be boycotted and ostracized by the entire world.

This is the dream of thousands of settlers, young people called "hilltop youth" and many others who support them, push them, cover up for them and hide them. Many of the local leaders in Judea and Samaria pay lip service and are filled with self-righteousness. They ignore the data published by the reliable investigative press (for example, Ronen Bergman and staff of The New York Times) and UN agencies, U.S. State Department and the U.S. National Security Council. "It's not that bad," they say. "Exaggerated," and "no foundation for the accusations."

There is a basis. I believe the words of the outgoing head of the IDF Central Command, Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fuchs, a brave soldier, an admirable commander, when he speaks with candor and openness about what his eyes saw in the occupied territories at our hands. He is not delusional and has not invented anything. He saw, his soldiers saw. And everyone knows about the reports on the settlers – not all of them, maybe not even the majority, but a very impressive number of them – who attack, loot, destroy, ruin, burn and kill innocent people – and also attack Israeli soldiers who are unwilling to lend a hand to their crimes.

Often present at the riots in these places are officers from the Border Police. I know many of their commanders in the past and present. They are among the most courageous, determined and daring of Israel's soldiers. But it is impossible to blur the facts that many of them close one eye, and sometimes even two, when criminal acts by Jewish rioters are taking place right next to them. How many of these rioters are arrested? How many of them are put on trial? How many of them are punished according to the severity of their actions? A marginal number. Almost certainly less than the number of protesters thrown to the ground, beaten and humiliated by Ben-Gvir's police officers.

None of this could have happened without the inspiration, back up and support given by the country's most senior leaders. First and foremost, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of TikTok, who controls the government like a violent bully. And along with him, Bezalel Smotrich, the minister for the territories in the Defense Ministry. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir support the settling of the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon by Jewish settlers. In the near future a halakhic authority will be found who will locate in the ancient writings the verse or two that will prove Southern Lebanon has always been part of our holy and historic homeland; and from here it is just a short road to a mass settler movement led by Daniella Weiss.

For this delusional goal they are encouraging an all-out war in the north, which is unnecessary and unjustified. Instead, we need to reach an agreement with the Lebanese government, to agree to minor border adjustments, which do not harm any historic Jewish property, and constitute no real security threat to Israel; and to bring about a withdrawal of Hezbollah forces dozens of kilometers from the Israeli border near the Litani River, as we did in practice after the Second Lebanon War. And the most important thing: We must return the residents of the north to their homes and rebuild their communities.

This government wants a war in the north to advance its great dream – a war of everyone against everyone, mutual destruction, expulsion of Palestinians and annexing the territories to Israel.

Given all this, I am warning you:

I am warning Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: The day is drawing near when arrest warrants will be issued against you for the crimes being carried out every day in Judea and Samaria by Israel, with the support of its government, while you intentionally turn a blind eye to it. The events in Gaza can be defended, because it's possible to claim they are not a result of policy, order or intention by Israel, not even by you. In the worst case, as we all know, you are not really managing, leading or directing. After all, you're not responsible for anything.

But these arguments won't be available to you concerning events in Judea and Samaria. Here crimes are committed on a daily basis, not by soldiers and not against soldiers, but by rioters who are Israeli citizens, Arab haters, with the clear intention of expelling them from their homes and the villages where they have lived all their lives.

As prime minister, you know about all these events. If you choose to ignore them too, you won't be able to deny you heard the warning of the head of the Central Command and other senior IDF commanders. I have spoken with a few of them and they are ashamed that these things are happening in areas under our control.

When these accusations are made against you, Mr. Prime Minister, not a single person with a conscience will be found among us, or in the international arena that supports us, who will be able to defend you.

I am also warning Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, for whom there will also be an arrest warrant. He is responsible for security, he can act and struggle against the reckless policies of Netanyahu and Smotrich, who is in charge of the territories in the Defense Ministry. Gallant prefers to be addicted to the continuation of the war in Gaza, to the warnings and threats of Hezbollah, and closes his eyes to what is happening in the territories under his responsibility.

I am warning Ben-Gvir, the minister of threats, incitement and supporting the hilltop youth – you won't avoid arrest warrants. Given the incitement, division and bullying that you unleash against the army commanders and specifically the chief of staff, the Shin Bet chief and Mossad warriors, you deserve arrest warrants from the attorney general. But even if she won't do it, you'll get arrest warrants from the International Criminal Court for the responsibility you bear and of which you are even proud.

I am warning Smotrich, who is actively extending the war and blocking negotiations for a hostage-release deal, encourages settling Gaza, inspires the hilltop youth, and supports Jewish settlement in southern Lebanon and total war in the north, the expected result of which will be the destruction and death of thousands of citizens among us and among them. Arrest warrants await you, too.

I am warning the police, Border Police and army commanders. You won't be able to shirk responsibility for the crimes being committed against the Palestinians in the territories. Arrest warrants will also be issued against you, and you'll have no real response.

Indeed, arrest warrants will be issued against the prime minister, leaders, cabinet ministers and commanders personally – but it is the State of Israel that will be tried in the end. All this at a time when Israel wants to end the war, return the hostages, withdraw from Gaza, bring in an international force, Arab or European, that will preserve the gains from the war that will prevent Hamas from rehabilitating and returning to power in Gaza. Israel wants to launch negotiations with the Palestinians over a peace deal between them and us, and the establishment of a nonmilitarized Palestinian state as part of a regional agreement that will create a stable, strong and reliable axis. Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, Saudi Arabia and the United States would form the base of and stand as the backbone of regional security against Iran.

I issue this warning because if we continue to reconcile with crimes against the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, serious and painful sanctions will be levied against Israel, and we won't have a good defense.

A warning: Israel will have no defense when charged with crimes against the Palestinians

***

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

OP posts:
Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 20:02

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 19:55

OK can we agree on something at least.

1,000 years or 2,000 years - whatever.

Muslims and Jews are indigenous to the land for centuries.

Israel exists.

This is about the Palestinians having a homeland too.

Not occupied, and not at the whim of Israel.

Well, yes. A Palestinian state was always a part of the plan, even at the time Israel gained independence. Not all blame for the lack of a Palestinian state can be lain at the feet of Israel though.

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 20:19

@Humdingerydoo

"Well, yes. A Palestinian state was always a part of the plan, even at the time Israel gained independence. Not all blame for the lack of a Palestinian state can be lain at the feet of Israel though."

The Knesset just voted against a Palestinian state for heavens sake.

What is the point of point-scoring anymore.

He said she said - it's all pointless.

We are where we are, and it is desperate.

The settlers need to be rehoused in Israel, and a 2-state solution.

So Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security.

It won't be perfect, will probably take years if not decades for each side to accept and move on.. but there is no other way.

OP posts:
Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 20:51

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 20:19

@Humdingerydoo

"Well, yes. A Palestinian state was always a part of the plan, even at the time Israel gained independence. Not all blame for the lack of a Palestinian state can be lain at the feet of Israel though."

The Knesset just voted against a Palestinian state for heavens sake.

What is the point of point-scoring anymore.

He said she said - it's all pointless.

We are where we are, and it is desperate.

The settlers need to be rehoused in Israel, and a 2-state solution.

So Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace and security.

It won't be perfect, will probably take years if not decades for each side to accept and move on.. but there is no other way.

You asked for agreement that Palestinians should also have a state and I agreed. I just pointed out that it wasn't always Israel who was an obstacle to that goal. Nowadays it is, but it wasn't previously. I agree, we can't do anything about the past and we need to move forward. That means Israel recognising a Palestinian state and the rest of the world, including all of the Arab world, recognising the state of Israel and stop trying to destroy it.

SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 21:19

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Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 21:27

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European origin, or forcibly displaced from Israel and ended up in Europe?

Anti-Semitism is to do with hatred towards Jewish people, not Semites.

Unbelievable that people still try to claim that Jewish people aren't originally from Israel 🫠 I thought even anti-Semites generally still acknowledged that. It is, after all, where the Nazis were telling Jews to go back to.

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 21:32

@Humdingerydoo

Look at Northern Ireland.

(I'm condensing massively, before anyone jumps in).

It started with a human rights crisis, that led to violence, the military, terrorism, and grave injustices on both sides for 30 years.

Sounds familiar right?

But peace is possible.

Condensing massively again but two main protagonists, Martin McGuinness and Ian Paisley ended up as, not only 1st and 2nd Ministers in the NI Assembly, but actual friends.

Not perfect. Not everyone is happy by any means. But relative peace.

OP posts:
SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 21:34

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 21:27

European origin, or forcibly displaced from Israel and ended up in Europe?

Anti-Semitism is to do with hatred towards Jewish people, not Semites.

Unbelievable that people still try to claim that Jewish people aren't originally from Israel 🫠 I thought even anti-Semites generally still acknowledged that. It is, after all, where the Nazis were telling Jews to go back to.

It seems to me that Israel is just European countries outsourcing their guilt and shame about their failure to prevent persecution of Jews to be taken out on the innocent people of Palestine, and doing nothing to tackle prejudice in their own countries. Of course, when Jews were expelled by Spain in the inquisition they were given sanctuary in Muslim lands. Before a false flag attack encouraging emigration to the nascent state of Israel Baghdad was the biggest Jewish city in the Middle East. I suggest you read the memoirs of Avi Shlaim, who describes himself as an Arab Jew.

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 21:49

SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 21:34

It seems to me that Israel is just European countries outsourcing their guilt and shame about their failure to prevent persecution of Jews to be taken out on the innocent people of Palestine, and doing nothing to tackle prejudice in their own countries. Of course, when Jews were expelled by Spain in the inquisition they were given sanctuary in Muslim lands. Before a false flag attack encouraging emigration to the nascent state of Israel Baghdad was the biggest Jewish city in the Middle East. I suggest you read the memoirs of Avi Shlaim, who describes himself as an Arab Jew.

And were all those Muslim lands that took in Jews during the Inquisition always Muslim? Or was that as a result of colonisation, the thing you're accusing Israel of?

The Jewish people are a Semitic people. We originally come from Israel. It's why our holy sites are there, underneath a Muslim holy site. Please stop revising history to suit your very obvious agenda.

I am also an Arab Jew. I really don't need you to lecture me on my history.

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 21:49

@SingleDadReally

Will you get your head out of the sand for heavens sake.

What is the point of talking about the Spanish Inquisition.

Look, did the British facilitate Israel out of a sense of guilt. Yeah probably.

And what's gone on since regarding the Palestinians is an abomination.

We are where we are, and no amount of going over the whys and wherefores is going to change anything.

What matters now is that Palestinians have their own state that is not the whim of Israel.

OP posts:
Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 22:21

I'm sorry, I just can't ignore this...

"Look, did the British facilitate Israel out of a sense of guilt. Yeah probably."

So are you saying that Jewish people probably didn't actually deserve self-determination in their homeland but here we are so let's make the best of it? It sounds a bit like you're arguing for the Palestinians right to self-determination while saying that Jewish people didn't actually deserve theirs but it happened anyway so let's just move on.

And you again forgot to add to the end of your post something about how Palestinians and various other people and countries should also acknowledge Israel's right to exist and that it should be allowed to do so in peace. That they should stop denying its existence and that Hamas should also once again change their charter to this time reflect that Israel shouldn't one day be a part of Palestine, that they don't reserve the right to one day take it over by force.

Peace goes two ways. There's no point in calling for peace from the Israelis without calling for it from the Palestinians and their supporters too.

SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 22:26

This reply has been deleted

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Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 22:33

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Zionism is the idea that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination in their homeland.

I really hope this new government spend that extra 20% VAT they'll soon be getting from those attending private schools on improving history lessons at schools. It's clearly urgently needed. Lessons in critical thinking and in not believing everything you see on TikTok would be much appreciated too. It's clearly needed.

SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 22:39

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 22:33

Zionism is the idea that the Jewish people have a right to self-determination in their homeland.

I really hope this new government spend that extra 20% VAT they'll soon be getting from those attending private schools on improving history lessons at schools. It's clearly urgently needed. Lessons in critical thinking and in not believing everything you see on TikTok would be much appreciated too. It's clearly needed.

No arguments then, just ad hominem attacks. Zionism is as finished as Joe Biden and you know it.

25milesfromhome · 21/07/2024 22:42

SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 22:39

No arguments then, just ad hominem attacks. Zionism is as finished as Joe Biden and you know it.

Bit overdramatic.

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 22:45

SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 22:39

No arguments then, just ad hominem attacks. Zionism is as finished as Joe Biden and you know it.

To be honest, I didn't bother replying to your utterly hateful post because I genuinely thought it would have been deleted by now. I guess the moderators have clocked off for the night or something, so you're in luck!

SharonEllis · 21/07/2024 22:46

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 21:49

@SingleDadReally

Will you get your head out of the sand for heavens sake.

What is the point of talking about the Spanish Inquisition.

Look, did the British facilitate Israel out of a sense of guilt. Yeah probably.

And what's gone on since regarding the Palestinians is an abomination.

We are where we are, and no amount of going over the whys and wherefores is going to change anything.

What matters now is that Palestinians have their own state that is not the whim of Israel.

While I appreciate your fair mindednesd in calling out the troll your analysis is extremely partial. I can't put it better than @Humdingerydoo so please respond to those comments.

SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 22:47

25milesfromhome · 21/07/2024 22:42

Bit overdramatic.

….and of course it’s self determination for Israelis and definitely NO self determination for Palestinians. Zionism does not believe in universal and equal human rights for all regardless of race or ethnicity. It’s a 19th century anachronistic colonial ideology of the sort that was consigned to the dustbin of history everywhere else 60 years ago.

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 22:50

For anyone else reading, please ignore his previous post. Pretty much every single word is a lie. It's all very TikTok and has zero substance but some very nice soundbites for him to mindlessly parrot.

25milesfromhome · 21/07/2024 22:52

SingleDadReally · 21/07/2024 22:47

….and of course it’s self determination for Israelis and definitely NO self determination for Palestinians. Zionism does not believe in universal and equal human rights for all regardless of race or ethnicity. It’s a 19th century anachronistic colonial ideology of the sort that was consigned to the dustbin of history everywhere else 60 years ago.

Wrong!

SharonEllis · 21/07/2024 22:53

He's a troll & best ignored.

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 22:55

25milesfromhome · 21/07/2024 22:52

Wrong!

So very, very wrong. But he knows that, he just doesn't care. He's clearly learned that as long as he repeats a lie enough times he'll inevitably be able to convince at least one idiot it's true. It's how a lot of terrorist groups operate too, it's how they have so many supporters despite being murderous scum.

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 23:07

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 22:21

I'm sorry, I just can't ignore this...

"Look, did the British facilitate Israel out of a sense of guilt. Yeah probably."

So are you saying that Jewish people probably didn't actually deserve self-determination in their homeland but here we are so let's make the best of it? It sounds a bit like you're arguing for the Palestinians right to self-determination while saying that Jewish people didn't actually deserve theirs but it happened anyway so let's just move on.

And you again forgot to add to the end of your post something about how Palestinians and various other people and countries should also acknowledge Israel's right to exist and that it should be allowed to do so in peace. That they should stop denying its existence and that Hamas should also once again change their charter to this time reflect that Israel shouldn't one day be a part of Palestine, that they don't reserve the right to one day take it over by force.

Peace goes two ways. There's no point in calling for peace from the Israelis without calling for it from the Palestinians and their supporters too.

"So are you saying that Jewish people probably didn't actually deserve self-determination”

  • I am saying no such thing.

“It sounds a bit like you're arguing for the Palestinians right to self-determination”

  • Yes I am.

“And you again forgot to add to the end of your post something about how Palestinians and various other people and countries should also acknowledge Israel's right to exist and that it should be allowed to do so in peace.”

  • I have repeatedly on numerous threads stated that Israel exists and there’s zero point arguing otherwise.

But actually, why should I have to mitigate everything I say with a repeated addendum that Israel has a right to exist. That’s bizarre right?

“Peace goes two ways. There's no point in calling for peace from the Israelis without calling for it from the Palestinians and their supporters too.”

  • Absolutely agree 100 percent.
OP posts:
SharonEllis · 21/07/2024 23:22

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 23:07

"So are you saying that Jewish people probably didn't actually deserve self-determination”

  • I am saying no such thing.

“It sounds a bit like you're arguing for the Palestinians right to self-determination”

  • Yes I am.

“And you again forgot to add to the end of your post something about how Palestinians and various other people and countries should also acknowledge Israel's right to exist and that it should be allowed to do so in peace.”

  • I have repeatedly on numerous threads stated that Israel exists and there’s zero point arguing otherwise.

But actually, why should I have to mitigate everything I say with a repeated addendum that Israel has a right to exist. That’s bizarre right?

“Peace goes two ways. There's no point in calling for peace from the Israelis without calling for it from the Palestinians and their supporters too.”

  • Absolutely agree 100 percent.

It sounds a bit like you're arguing for the Palestinians right to self-determination”

  • Yes I am.
This is incredibly disingenuous. You know there was a second half to this sentence.

Israel exists and there’s zero point arguing otherwise.

This is pretty half hearted and not in any way the same as saying Israel has a right to exist, and for peace to happen the Palestinians and their supporters must ensure Israel's security. To pretend that this is a given & you shouldn't have to articulate it, in the wake of October the 7th does give the impression that you're only interested in one side of the peace equation.

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 23:23

AhNowTed · 21/07/2024 23:07

"So are you saying that Jewish people probably didn't actually deserve self-determination”

  • I am saying no such thing.

“It sounds a bit like you're arguing for the Palestinians right to self-determination”

  • Yes I am.

“And you again forgot to add to the end of your post something about how Palestinians and various other people and countries should also acknowledge Israel's right to exist and that it should be allowed to do so in peace.”

  • I have repeatedly on numerous threads stated that Israel exists and there’s zero point arguing otherwise.

But actually, why should I have to mitigate everything I say with a repeated addendum that Israel has a right to exist. That’s bizarre right?

“Peace goes two ways. There's no point in calling for peace from the Israelis without calling for it from the Palestinians and their supporters too.”

  • Absolutely agree 100 percent.

So then what did you mean by" Look, did the British facilitate Israel out of a sense of guilt. Yeah probably."? Surely if you think it was "probably" out of a sense of guilt that means you think that Jewish people didn't actually deserve it but were given it anyway?

Also, only including half of someone's quote to make yourself look good is an incredibly shitty thing to do. You cut off the bit about wanting self-determination for Palestinians while seemingly saying that Jewish people didn't deserve it.

Yes, you've said Israel exists. You've been very careful not to say that it deserves to exist. I take great issue with that as obviously that would be an incredibly hypocritical stance for you to take.

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2024 23:25

SharonEllis · 21/07/2024 23:22

It sounds a bit like you're arguing for the Palestinians right to self-determination”

  • Yes I am.
This is incredibly disingenuous. You know there was a second half to this sentence.

Israel exists and there’s zero point arguing otherwise.

This is pretty half hearted and not in any way the same as saying Israel has a right to exist, and for peace to happen the Palestinians and their supporters must ensure Israel's security. To pretend that this is a given & you shouldn't have to articulate it, in the wake of October the 7th does give the impression that you're only interested in one side of the peace equation.

Thank you!! I thought that was an incredibly odd thing for them to do as well, to purposely cut off half the sentence to completely change the point I was making.

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