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Conflict in the Middle East

"A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians" Former PM Ehud Olmert

202 replies

AhNowTed · 12/07/2024 17:25

I realise a lot of folks can't access links, so the text is faithfully copied.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

Former PM Ehud Olmert

A Warning: Israel Will Have No Defense When It Is Charged With Crimes Against the Palestinians

Arrest warrants will be issued against Israel's political leaders and military commanders – but it is the State of Israel itself that will be put on trial in the end

Almost every day I watch an interview on television with a relative of one of the fallen "wearers of knitted-kippot." Yes, "wearers of knitted-kippot" is the most precise description for these members of the religious Zionist community. Not settlers, not messianists, not annexationists. Heroes. No group in Israel exhibits greater determination, sacrifice, identification, courage and a willingness for combat than they do.

There are others like them – non-religious soldiers from moshavim and kibbutzim; city people from Tel Aviv, Netanya, Herzliya, Haifa, Be'er Sheva and other cities; and those from the periphery, from Kiryat Shmona to Eilat – but none more than them. The number of fallen soldiers among the religious Zionist community well exceeds their percentage among the general population.

We can't ignore this fact, and we mustn't obscure or devalue it. The military is fighting with amazing daring, courage and sacrifice, in part because of the contribution of these soldiers, and those like them. When we speak about togetherness, national unity and solidarity – I'm with them. On the battlefield, the unity exists and strengthens them.

But sometimes when I hear these relatives of the fallen and those abducted – some of them, but not all – my heart breaks and the feeling of unity cracks. Many of them don't want a hostage deal. Their children are hostages and every day they could well pay with their lives. Their fate is unclear, their sanity and psychological resilience are being put to a harsh test, but they think the need for total victory, destruction of Hamas and the destruction of Gaza – along with the unavoidable deaths of many of the hostages, and necessarily also the death of Palestinians who have no connection to Hamas terrorism and may even be its victims as well – stands at the top of the list of priorities. I don't feel unity with this approach.

None of them say it explicitly, but I get the impression that the public figures from the believing, settler community that yearns to settle Gaza and Lebanonand are able to contend with the danger of death to their children – when they are standing with admirable, but also revulsive, determination in their demands to continue the fighting and total victory, they will not have any difficulty containing the burning of Palestinian communities and property of completely innocent Palestinians.

Many of them justify the continuation of the fighting in Gaza and call to expand the fighting in the north, so they can continue the work of destruction and obliteration in the West Bank. All of this on the way to fulfill the greater dream of liberating parts of the Land of Israel and expelling Palestinians, in advance of annexation of all the territories and turning Israel into an apartheid state that will be boycotted and ostracized by the entire world.

This is the dream of thousands of settlers, young people called "hilltop youth" and many others who support them, push them, cover up for them and hide them. Many of the local leaders in Judea and Samaria pay lip service and are filled with self-righteousness. They ignore the data published by the reliable investigative press (for example, Ronen Bergman and staff of The New York Times) and UN agencies, U.S. State Department and the U.S. National Security Council. "It's not that bad," they say. "Exaggerated," and "no foundation for the accusations."

There is a basis. I believe the words of the outgoing head of the IDF Central Command, Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fuchs, a brave soldier, an admirable commander, when he speaks with candor and openness about what his eyes saw in the occupied territories at our hands. He is not delusional and has not invented anything. He saw, his soldiers saw. And everyone knows about the reports on the settlers – not all of them, maybe not even the majority, but a very impressive number of them – who attack, loot, destroy, ruin, burn and kill innocent people – and also attack Israeli soldiers who are unwilling to lend a hand to their crimes.

Often present at the riots in these places are officers from the Border Police. I know many of their commanders in the past and present. They are among the most courageous, determined and daring of Israel's soldiers. But it is impossible to blur the facts that many of them close one eye, and sometimes even two, when criminal acts by Jewish rioters are taking place right next to them. How many of these rioters are arrested? How many of them are put on trial? How many of them are punished according to the severity of their actions? A marginal number. Almost certainly less than the number of protesters thrown to the ground, beaten and humiliated by Ben-Gvir's police officers.

None of this could have happened without the inspiration, back up and support given by the country's most senior leaders. First and foremost, Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of TikTok, who controls the government like a violent bully. And along with him, Bezalel Smotrich, the minister for the territories in the Defense Ministry. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir support the settling of the Gaza Strip and Southern Lebanon by Jewish settlers. In the near future a halakhic authority will be found who will locate in the ancient writings the verse or two that will prove Southern Lebanon has always been part of our holy and historic homeland; and from here it is just a short road to a mass settler movement led by Daniella Weiss.

For this delusional goal they are encouraging an all-out war in the north, which is unnecessary and unjustified. Instead, we need to reach an agreement with the Lebanese government, to agree to minor border adjustments, which do not harm any historic Jewish property, and constitute no real security threat to Israel; and to bring about a withdrawal of Hezbollah forces dozens of kilometers from the Israeli border near the Litani River, as we did in practice after the Second Lebanon War. And the most important thing: We must return the residents of the north to their homes and rebuild their communities.

This government wants a war in the north to advance its great dream – a war of everyone against everyone, mutual destruction, expulsion of Palestinians and annexing the territories to Israel.

Given all this, I am warning you:

I am warning Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu: The day is drawing near when arrest warrants will be issued against you for the crimes being carried out every day in Judea and Samaria by Israel, with the support of its government, while you intentionally turn a blind eye to it. The events in Gaza can be defended, because it's possible to claim they are not a result of policy, order or intention by Israel, not even by you. In the worst case, as we all know, you are not really managing, leading or directing. After all, you're not responsible for anything.

But these arguments won't be available to you concerning events in Judea and Samaria. Here crimes are committed on a daily basis, not by soldiers and not against soldiers, but by rioters who are Israeli citizens, Arab haters, with the clear intention of expelling them from their homes and the villages where they have lived all their lives.

As prime minister, you know about all these events. If you choose to ignore them too, you won't be able to deny you heard the warning of the head of the Central Command and other senior IDF commanders. I have spoken with a few of them and they are ashamed that these things are happening in areas under our control.

When these accusations are made against you, Mr. Prime Minister, not a single person with a conscience will be found among us, or in the international arena that supports us, who will be able to defend you.

I am also warning Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, for whom there will also be an arrest warrant. He is responsible for security, he can act and struggle against the reckless policies of Netanyahu and Smotrich, who is in charge of the territories in the Defense Ministry. Gallant prefers to be addicted to the continuation of the war in Gaza, to the warnings and threats of Hezbollah, and closes his eyes to what is happening in the territories under his responsibility.

I am warning Ben-Gvir, the minister of threats, incitement and supporting the hilltop youth – you won't avoid arrest warrants. Given the incitement, division and bullying that you unleash against the army commanders and specifically the chief of staff, the Shin Bet chief and Mossad warriors, you deserve arrest warrants from the attorney general. But even if she won't do it, you'll get arrest warrants from the International Criminal Court for the responsibility you bear and of which you are even proud.

I am warning Smotrich, who is actively extending the war and blocking negotiations for a hostage-release deal, encourages settling Gaza, inspires the hilltop youth, and supports Jewish settlement in southern Lebanon and total war in the north, the expected result of which will be the destruction and death of thousands of citizens among us and among them. Arrest warrants await you, too.

I am warning the police, Border Police and army commanders. You won't be able to shirk responsibility for the crimes being committed against the Palestinians in the territories. Arrest warrants will also be issued against you, and you'll have no real response.

Indeed, arrest warrants will be issued against the prime minister, leaders, cabinet ministers and commanders personally – but it is the State of Israel that will be tried in the end. All this at a time when Israel wants to end the war, return the hostages, withdraw from Gaza, bring in an international force, Arab or European, that will preserve the gains from the war that will prevent Hamas from rehabilitating and returning to power in Gaza. Israel wants to launch negotiations with the Palestinians over a peace deal between them and us, and the establishment of a nonmilitarized Palestinian state as part of a regional agreement that will create a stable, strong and reliable axis. Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Bahrain, the UAE, Saudi Arabia and the United States would form the base of and stand as the backbone of regional security against Iran.

I issue this warning because if we continue to reconcile with crimes against the Palestinians in Judea and Samaria, serious and painful sanctions will be levied against Israel, and we won't have a good defense.

A warning: Israel will have no defense when charged with crimes against the Palestinians

***

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-07-12/ty-article/.premium/a-warning-israel-will-have-no-defense-when-charged-with-crimes-against-the-palestinians/00000190-a32e-ddf1-abb6-efef44fd0000

OP posts:
SingleDadReally · 12/07/2024 20:36

The vast majority of United Nations member states have recognised Palestine, Israel is on trial for genocide, its northern border has been evacuated and it hasn’t managed to subdue Hamas after 9 months of fighting and can’t really contemplate a war with Hamas. It’s main ally will be run by either a genocidal zombie or a pornstar shagging rapist fraudster in future and there’ll soon be an arrest warrant out for its Prime Minister and Defence Minister, part of a government that includes a self declared fascist and a convicted terrorist. How any British person can support Israel is a mystery to me.

Comedycook · 12/07/2024 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lol....

Do please tell me how many Jews are left in Yemen rather preach at us about Israel and their treatment of other religions other than Judaism!

LiterallyOnFire · 12/07/2024 20:41

SingleDadReally · 12/07/2024 20:36

The vast majority of United Nations member states have recognised Palestine, Israel is on trial for genocide, its northern border has been evacuated and it hasn’t managed to subdue Hamas after 9 months of fighting and can’t really contemplate a war with Hamas. It’s main ally will be run by either a genocidal zombie or a pornstar shagging rapist fraudster in future and there’ll soon be an arrest warrant out for its Prime Minister and Defence Minister, part of a government that includes a self declared fascist and a convicted terrorist. How any British person can support Israel is a mystery to me.

Israel is most definitely not "on trial for genocide".

You are transparent.

LiterallyOnFire · 12/07/2024 20:42
  • Who is looking the other way? Report the antisemitic posts and get them deleted. But you and @LiterallyOnFire seem to be calling everyone on these threads antisemitic and not worth bothering with so it is hard to know who exactly you are referring to. It is best to report and get their posts deleted.*

So you can't hear the symphony of dog whistling then?

SingleDadReally · 12/07/2024 20:42

If you read Avi Shlaim’s account of how false flag attacks were promoted by Israel to encourage Middle Eastern Jews to emigrate to Israel you’ll know why the respected Jewish communities in Middle Eastern countries diminished. Actually there is still a respected Jewish community in Iran.

Silence1 · 12/07/2024 20:53

I think it is an excellent article, thank you for sharing.
When we were hearing more and more reports of the escalation of violence by Israeli Settlers (prior to 7th October) ,I couldn't understand how people in Israel a supposed modern 21st century democracy, went about their lives/work in high tech industry/posh meals out etc whilst this violence was being carried out in their names with their Govt tacit approval?
Now of course it has got even worse. The article by the IDF soldiers is so shocking but at least those few soldiers have a conscience unlike the scum that are Israeli Settlers.

Comedycook · 12/07/2024 21:03

SingleDadReally · 12/07/2024 20:42

If you read Avi Shlaim’s account of how false flag attacks were promoted by Israel to encourage Middle Eastern Jews to emigrate to Israel you’ll know why the respected Jewish communities in Middle Eastern countries diminished. Actually there is still a respected Jewish community in Iran.

You seem quite angry about Israel.

Are you equally as angry about freedom of religion or lack of in Saudi Arabia for example?

TomeTome · 12/07/2024 21:07

I think most Christians believe the Jews were lead to the promised land (Israel) because that’s what we are taught. We don’t know the ins and outs of the history of the region because it’s quite far away, just as I would imagine few Israelis know much about the history of Canada or South Africa. Presumably most Israelis know where the Jewish religion started and how they came to be where they are. Perhaps they can trace their families back?

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 21:11

We've moved into gaslighting territory now. People can't be this stupid and ill informed so we can only assume its deliberate trolling.

TomeTome · 12/07/2024 21:14

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 21:11

We've moved into gaslighting territory now. People can't be this stupid and ill informed so we can only assume its deliberate trolling.

The original piece or the subsequent discussion? “Gaslighting” is an odd accusation. Do you understand what it means?

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 21:17

TomeTome · 12/07/2024 21:14

The original piece or the subsequent discussion? “Gaslighting” is an odd accusation. Do you understand what it means?

Of course I know what it means. Might I suggest you do some reading?

Dulra · 12/07/2024 21:21

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 21:11

We've moved into gaslighting territory now. People can't be this stupid and ill informed so we can only assume its deliberate trolling.

Maybe if you stopped talking in code I would understand what you are talking about?

so we can only assume its deliberate trolling.
Whose we and who is trolling?

Dulra · 12/07/2024 21:22

LiterallyOnFire · 12/07/2024 20:42

  • Who is looking the other way? Report the antisemitic posts and get them deleted. But you and @LiterallyOnFire seem to be calling everyone on these threads antisemitic and not worth bothering with so it is hard to know who exactly you are referring to. It is best to report and get their posts deleted.*

So you can't hear the symphony of dog whistling then?

So you can't hear the symphony of dog whistling then?
??????

TomeTome · 12/07/2024 21:23

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 21:17

Of course I know what it means. Might I suggest you do some reading?

Well you can suggest whatever you like but “read more” is a fairly odd suggestion. My suggestion to you is maybe be a bit more direct and clear when responding on a thread, particularly one where people easily become upset. Assuming you have a direct criticism, maybe name or quote the poster you are addressing and what you have taken issue with, or just join the discussion with your own thoughts.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/07/2024 21:43

LiterallyOnFire · 12/07/2024 20:23

Anyhow. I'm going to make another attempt to hide the board.

Good luck to those of you who aren't anti-Semitic.

Do you have any points to
discuss regarding the article by the former
PM Ehud Olmer, as he is not being anti-semitic?

PeasfullPerson · 12/07/2024 21:52

It’s such a tragic and shameful situation, tragic for the good people of Israel, and shameful for the government and those who support these crimes. I’m pleased they wrote this article, and thanks for sharing it @AhNowTed

@SharonEllis you have accused many people of being antiemetic and I don’t always feel it stands, but if it was this comment below, then yes I agree it is.

Also, from what many other regular posters have written, I believe they want a two state solution, and that they wouldn’t agree with this. It’s sad to say but as the word antisemitism has been applied so often, in my opinion, to instances it shouldn’t be, not as much attention is paid to it anymore.

It was by @SingleDadReally and they said

‘It’s time for the colonists to go home and leave the place to the true indigenous population-the Palestinians.’

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 21:54

TomeTome · 12/07/2024 21:23

Well you can suggest whatever you like but “read more” is a fairly odd suggestion. My suggestion to you is maybe be a bit more direct and clear when responding on a thread, particularly one where people easily become upset. Assuming you have a direct criticism, maybe name or quote the poster you are addressing and what you have taken issue with, or just join the discussion with your own thoughts.

Yes I have a direct criticism as I have made absolutely plain & make no apology for calling out irresponsible & inflammatory comments which shoukd not be ignored I have asked @SingleDadReally a direct question more than once which has been ignored. Your comment that we can't understand the history because its far away is risible & I think that if that is your take then some reading would certainly be helpful to you.

SingleDadReally · 12/07/2024 22:11

Ah, here we come with the anti semitism smears. Nothing I’ve said is anti semitic. This is the problem now. Unless you support Zionism and the far right government of Netanyahu (Likud, a descendant of the Irgun terrorists who blew up the King David hotel murdering 95 people) containing a self declared fascist and a convicted terrorist, the routine murder of Palestinian children, the land theft, illegal occupation and settlements, administrative detention and military detention of children you’re an anti semite on the scale of the Nazis. Well most normal humane people aren’t prepared to acquiesce in all that anymore.

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 22:41

PeasfullPerson · 12/07/2024 21:52

It’s such a tragic and shameful situation, tragic for the good people of Israel, and shameful for the government and those who support these crimes. I’m pleased they wrote this article, and thanks for sharing it @AhNowTed

@SharonEllis you have accused many people of being antiemetic and I don’t always feel it stands, but if it was this comment below, then yes I agree it is.

Also, from what many other regular posters have written, I believe they want a two state solution, and that they wouldn’t agree with this. It’s sad to say but as the word antisemitism has been applied so often, in my opinion, to instances it shouldn’t be, not as much attention is paid to it anymore.

It was by @SingleDadReally and they said

‘It’s time for the colonists to go home and leave the place to the true indigenous population-the Palestinians.’

That wasn't the only antisemitic thing that poster said but thank you for recognising it and calling out, while others turned a blind eye.

I note btw that I did not report the posts as I generally prefer to shine a light for all to see. Obviously others did & MN agreed.

Dulra · 12/07/2024 22:47

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 22:41

That wasn't the only antisemitic thing that poster said but thank you for recognising it and calling out, while others turned a blind eye.

I note btw that I did not report the posts as I generally prefer to shine a light for all to see. Obviously others did & MN agreed.

I think it is extremely unfair to accuse posters of turning a blind eye. You seem to assume we all post in packs we're individuals here, as I've said earlier if something is antisemitic report it and get it deleted if you choose to let it stand so be it, but don't attack other posters on a thread and assume things about them.

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 22:57

Dulra · 12/07/2024 22:47

I think it is extremely unfair to accuse posters of turning a blind eye. You seem to assume we all post in packs we're individuals here, as I've said earlier if something is antisemitic report it and get it deleted if you choose to let it stand so be it, but don't attack other posters on a thread and assume things about them.

That posters comment was the first comment on the thread! Nobody could have missed it! Sorry, don't understand the point about packs - MNetters are all individuals and I can't imagine how anyone would co-ordinate a response as a pack? I don't agree that reporting things is necessarily the right thing to do. As there is so much uncertainty and ignorance around these issues far better to call out and discuss so people can learn and develop their ideas and understanding. Occasionally I think its appropriate when something is blatantly abusive, for example.

Hedgeoffressian · 12/07/2024 23:03

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 19:21

Ah you're back @AhNowTed. Please answer my question.

They probably carried out the 7th October attacks in order to goad Israel into retaliating to then generate world wide outrage at Israel. People are seeing horrific images on social media from Gaza and the calls for a ‘free Palestine’ are growing.

Limesodaagain · 12/07/2024 23:04

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 22:41

That wasn't the only antisemitic thing that poster said but thank you for recognising it and calling out, while others turned a blind eye.

I note btw that I did not report the posts as I generally prefer to shine a light for all to see. Obviously others did & MN agreed.

I didn’t report it for the same reasons as you. It was sad to see how few posters were prepared to call out anti semitism but others didn’t seem to notice or care. Some posters are very quick to notice offence towards one “side” but are oblivious to blatant antisemitism . The now deleted comments were unambiguously anti semitic - much more blatant than a subtle dog whistle .
Thank you to @PeasfullPerson who I know is a strong pro Palestine supporter but is prepared to call out antisemitism.

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 23:08

Limesodaagain · 12/07/2024 23:04

I didn’t report it for the same reasons as you. It was sad to see how few posters were prepared to call out anti semitism but others didn’t seem to notice or care. Some posters are very quick to notice offence towards one “side” but are oblivious to blatant antisemitism . The now deleted comments were unambiguously anti semitic - much more blatant than a subtle dog whistle .
Thank you to @PeasfullPerson who I know is a strong pro Palestine supporter but is prepared to call out antisemitism.

Yes, appreciate it @PeasfullPerson

TomeTome · 12/07/2024 23:14

SharonEllis · 12/07/2024 21:54

Yes I have a direct criticism as I have made absolutely plain & make no apology for calling out irresponsible & inflammatory comments which shoukd not be ignored I have asked @SingleDadReally a direct question more than once which has been ignored. Your comment that we can't understand the history because its far away is risible & I think that if that is your take then some reading would certainly be helpful to you.

I don’t think I said we can’t understand the history. What I said was Christians are spoon fed the story of Jews being lead through the desert to the promised land (Israel). It’s therefore not surprising that they believe that happened. That the region might have a different history isn’t taught
Israel is not our neighbour so we are likely to know our own uk history and that of the countries nearer to home more commonly. I’m pretty sure most Israelis would know more about Egypt and Lebanon for example than the average British person. I can’t see why that’s laughable, it seems perfectly obvious to me.

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