Page 21 | New Hamas video of hostages

LordPercyPercy · 26/05/2024 12:27

To my shame, I have lower expectations of Palestinians.

I think we see this whenever people state that the current Gaza conflict will breed another generation of hate (although I'm not denying that it might). It overlooks that many nations have been on the receiving end of a huge death toll and mass infrastructure destruction and have peacefully rebuilt - Germany and Japan for instance. The Palestinians get painted as more vengeful with that statement.
That being said, there were obviously huge international efforts post second world war to create peace and rebuild and I'd like to see the same here.

Limesodaagain · 26/05/2024 12:50

Some really balanced and honest responses here. Some of these posts have made me reflect on my own subconscious prejudices and judgements.

Gladanotthwrteamonesomething · 26/05/2024 15:24

LordPercyPercy · 26/05/2024 12:27

To my shame, I have lower expectations of Palestinians.

I think we see this whenever people state that the current Gaza conflict will breed another generation of hate (although I'm not denying that it might). It overlooks that many nations have been on the receiving end of a huge death toll and mass infrastructure destruction and have peacefully rebuilt - Germany and Japan for instance. The Palestinians get painted as more vengeful with that statement.
That being said, there were obviously huge international efforts post second world war to create peace and rebuild and I'd like to see the same here.

Indeed.

Germany, Japan did it. Why do we assume Palestinian people are incapable of wanting peace in the future and will become more terrorists. That this breeds terrorists is said by supporters of Palestine too. They even don't hold high expectations of them wanting peace. Its odd

PearlKoala · 26/05/2024 15:34

Gladanotthwrteamonesomething · 26/05/2024 15:24

Indeed.

Germany, Japan did it. Why do we assume Palestinian people are incapable of wanting peace in the future and will become more terrorists. That this breeds terrorists is said by supporters of Palestine too. They even don't hold high expectations of them wanting peace. Its odd

Edited

Show quote history

Are we talking about a Palestine still under occupation with their borders controlled and their homes being stolen or are we talking about a Palestine that is free from occupation and control? There is a huge difference there. If this ends and the status quo remains of Palestine being occupied and the people being left stateless then it really isn't like Germany or Japan is it?

Scirocco · 26/05/2024 17:39

I believe a free Palestine, protected from occupation and violence, and given international recognition and security, can heal and find a way to have peace, even with its former occupier and oppressor.

coralpinkduckegg · 28/05/2024 15:27

Muthaofcats · 22/05/2024 17:00

The new Hamas video released today of the female hostages selected as the ones they planned to get pregnant was so sickening and I wish I hadn’t seen it.

however, I am also wondering WHY it has not been more widely picked up and broadcast? I don’t understand the silence from the bleeding left; why don’t they see stuff like this and not just feel desperate and sick about those poor poor girls and their families who must be beyond devastated.

Watching the men in those videos helps to counter balance the idea of Israel as the aggressor. I wish more would see it and reflect or even just place those women of equal value to those in Gaza.

How is the world so perverse right now that this warrants a shrug from so many? Or worse, is viewed as justified !?

How would you now feel if the response to this horrific thing, from global leaders and many many cognitively dissonant people, was:

"Well, awful as this is, it's a war and there will be casualties. It's the nature of war."

coralpinkduckegg · 28/05/2024 15:34

LordPercyPercy · 26/05/2024 12:27

To my shame, I have lower expectations of Palestinians.

I think we see this whenever people state that the current Gaza conflict will breed another generation of hate (although I'm not denying that it might). It overlooks that many nations have been on the receiving end of a huge death toll and mass infrastructure destruction and have peacefully rebuilt - Germany and Japan for instance. The Palestinians get painted as more vengeful with that statement.
That being said, there were obviously huge international efforts post second world war to create peace and rebuild and I'd like to see the same here.

There was a very interesting episode of the Rest is Politics on this, with a human rights lawyer. The answer was something along the lines of when these things are over there are a lot of interventions both domestically and internationally to make sure countries are rebuilt. They gave the example of Serbia/ Bosnia where whilst the genocide is still recent, raw and within living memory, there is effort to educate and move forward in peace. In order to do this though there has to be some recognition of wrongdoing and some sort of apology. That is not likely between Israel and Hamas.

Mummy2024 · 31/05/2024 16:45

ChickyBricky · 25/05/2024 10:28

I think the snag might lie in whilst still wanting them to be successful and remove hamas.

Look, we're all talking out of our arses here because we have no access to any of the intelligence Israel are working on. From the comfort of our cosy living-rooms, it's easy to say "Stop!" The assumption that they are just carrying out indiscriminate attacks is interesting, we wouldn't assume that about our own country if we were responding to a terrorist threat.

Show quote history

I would...

Mummy2024 · 31/05/2024 16:50

ChickyBricky · 26/05/2024 12:22

To my shame, I have lower expectations of Palestinians. Likewise waring parties in Africa or other developing nations. Why? I don't know. They're not savages, they shouldn't be treated as such

I really appreciate you saying this. It's like I said on p3, copied here in case you were not hanging onto my every word 🤪
What I was trying to convey is the idea that in the West, we think we know all about fascism: it looks like Hitler, or Netanyahu (both white-looking men in suits); it is supported by corporate greed, which makes us automatically think of the US; these are our default prejudices. The Islamic version embodied by Hamas does not compute with our patronising tendency to see "brown" people as having no wealth, agency, or strategic vision.

The reason I've got so carried away defending Israel is that I DO think double standards are applied, not helped of course by Netanyahu being an arsehole. I think we are very self-critical in the West, and so carry that cynicism over into anything that appears to be influenced by Western capitalism. My DH grew up under Soviet rule and has a very different set of things he's wary of.

Unfortunately, it looks as though any attempt to eliminate Hamas is going to be more like chemotherapy than keyhole surgery, given their level of infiltration and control. It would be almost as difficult if they didn't have the tunnel network, if they didn't deliberately set up base in sensitive targets. In these circumstances, I feel frustrated by the insistence on blaming Israel for everything.

And of course nothing answers the problem of what happens to all the malicious intent if and when this conflict ever "resolves." Energy never dies, it just changes form. People say that to cheer themselves up about dying, but it's just as true of evil.

It's beyond depressing to see just how much malicious intent there is, and the forms it takes. I realise how naive I was before 7 October, about so many things, but particularly our capacity for cruelty and stupidity. Maybe this is the way the world ends for humanity, and if so good fucking riddance to be honest 🤦🏻‍♀️

Innocent lives are not collateral damage to achieve an aim. If they were any country at war could claim this, if this were the case and then where would we be?

I can't believe that some people believe that starving a population and killing thousands upon thousands in 6 month is justified to achieve an aim.
If this kind of behaviour is allowed what happens when it is us attacked? Should they be allowed to slaughter Innocent people ie us to win?

Livelovebehappy · 31/05/2024 20:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Mummy2024 · 01/06/2024 01:04

Gladanotthwrteamonesomething · 26/05/2024 09:18

This.

Some only have sympathy for Palestinian people. Nothing for Israeli people at all regardless of their situation.

Secondly and separately, the hatred of the west as colonisers forgetting that Australian people are mainly descendents of colonisers as are Americans. Beat Israel as a way to hit the west. Forgetting that Judea and Jewish people were indigenous and only considering those that arrived after WW2 from elsewhere (including from other middle East countries where they were unsafe).

Thirdly, forgetting that Jordan and Egypt were occupiers of the area prior.

It feels that most of this stems from hating Jewish people. Especially when other conflicts, problems in the world are largely ignored.

Show quote history

I promise you for me that is not the case. I do not hate Jewish people and I am not at all taking sides. It's an absolute disgrace what was done in October. It's criminal it's inhumane and should be punished to the full extent of the law but at the same time most palastinians are completely innocent and do not deserve what is happening to them right now.

This has gone on for 70 years isn't it about time peace was demanded for the sake of all involved?

What most people want is a stop to the violence and a peaceful settlement reached. Would this not be better than 70 more years of conflict?

I understand what you mean about conflicts elsewhere aswell such as the Iraq war but I think we as a population have learned from that conflict. We were lied to and mislead into supporting a war that should never have happened. It's opened our eyes to the reality that Infact nothing is as it seems or what we are lead to believe. We don't want more death. In the war in Ukraine we were able to help, we took them in many people into their own homes. We can do nothing to help innocent palastinians and we see our government doing the bare minimum and doing next to nothing to bring an end to their suffering. We see them on tv saying ohh it's tragic but we will still send more weapons.

Israel has a right to exist and we should and will support Israel if that ever becomes at risk but most of us also want palastine to have a state.

We don't have to chose sides to want peace and adherence to international laws on both sides. We are acutely aware that tomorrow this could be us or our children, would we want to be thought of as an unfortunate consequence or acceptable sacrifice to achieve war aims? We wouldn't we are putting ourselves in their shoes because we are all aware that we are edging ever closer to being in the situation that the palastinians are currently in.

Original poster

Muthaofcats · 01/06/2024 06:15

Mummy2024 · 01/06/2024 01:04

I promise you for me that is not the case. I do not hate Jewish people and I am not at all taking sides. It's an absolute disgrace what was done in October. It's criminal it's inhumane and should be punished to the full extent of the law but at the same time most palastinians are completely innocent and do not deserve what is happening to them right now.

This has gone on for 70 years isn't it about time peace was demanded for the sake of all involved?

What most people want is a stop to the violence and a peaceful settlement reached. Would this not be better than 70 more years of conflict?

I understand what you mean about conflicts elsewhere aswell such as the Iraq war but I think we as a population have learned from that conflict. We were lied to and mislead into supporting a war that should never have happened. It's opened our eyes to the reality that Infact nothing is as it seems or what we are lead to believe. We don't want more death. In the war in Ukraine we were able to help, we took them in many people into their own homes. We can do nothing to help innocent palastinians and we see our government doing the bare minimum and doing next to nothing to bring an end to their suffering. We see them on tv saying ohh it's tragic but we will still send more weapons.

Israel has a right to exist and we should and will support Israel if that ever becomes at risk but most of us also want palastine to have a state.

We don't have to chose sides to want peace and adherence to international laws on both sides. We are acutely aware that tomorrow this could be us or our children, would we want to be thought of as an unfortunate consequence or acceptable sacrifice to achieve war aims? We wouldn't we are putting ourselves in their shoes because we are all aware that we are edging ever closer to being in the situation that the palastinians are currently in.

Show quote history

You say you will support Israel if that ever becomes at risk?

do you not see Hamas attack (and all previous attacks as well as their promise to keep doing it until Israel doesn’t exist) as exactly this?

what would your support look like?

OP posts:

Mummy2024 · 10/06/2024 00:27

Muthaofcats · 01/06/2024 06:15

You say you will support Israel if that ever becomes at risk?

do you not see Hamas attack (and all previous attacks as well as their promise to keep doing it until Israel doesn’t exist) as exactly this?

what would your support look like?

Edited

Show quote history

If Hamas or Iran or any other nation made an attempt to invade Israel and there was a meaningful and existential risk to its existence I would expect the UK to step in and help including sending boots on the ground. What happened in October shows that Hamas does not currently have the military capability to do this.

I support fully Israels right to self defence and it's original efforts to remove hamas from power was acceptable and it's sovereign right. The way it has gone about this killing and injuring far to many civilian palastinians. Cutting off food and supplies is not acceptable and everytime I see the US or the UK go on tv saying ohh yes it's terrible unacceptable but not a war crime. I feel absolute disgust inside, it's absolute double standards.

The level of death and destruction in palastine will likely have only increased support from palastinians for military action and hatred for the people of Israel, it's completely unfair to people of both nations and it will prolong this conflict for another 70 years. Adherence to international law was imperative and should be the back bone to any free democratic country. I've realised in recent times this is sadly not the case. Both nations need an appetite for true and long lasting peace. This hatred and battle for land is not worth the lives of both people's.