To say the London Palestinian marches should be stopped

[KarmaCaramello]

They are weekly marches found to be organised by organisations with links to Hamas, and at least one ex Hamas member.

They are supporting a terrorist organisation that has just committed the deadliest day in Israel’s history. An Iranian dissident was arrested for holding a sign saying Hamas is Terrorist, despite the fact that they are a UK-designated terrorist organisation - because protestors assaulted him on seeing the sign.

If they were calling for peace and fewer casualties they would be condemning Hamas and calling for them to surrender.

AIBU to think this is deeply disturbing and has no place on the streets of London. Note - terrorist support is illegal and not protected speech.

Exactly!

People don’t generally protest against widely held views that are already being upheld with action!

@Dibilnik I really would have thought you of all people would be keen for context to be given to posts and quotations... You've previously said how important it is and how we shouldn't make assumptions about things, especially when said or done by people who are may be in or who may have experienced stressful or upsetting situations.

Mosab Hassan Youseff is entitled to his opinion, as are others. The way in which his opinion is presented in the initial post and the post on X is somewhat disingenuous, and without context. Many people may not know his background or factors which could influence his views. Many people may also not appreciate the conflating of 'Hamas supporters' and individuals concerned about human rights and a potential genocide. The initial post really does not read as having been posted in good faith, and instead reads as another example of how 'facts' only matter if they can be misrepresented to serve someone's agenda.

Maybe everyone could have an Agreement March? We could all bring signs of things the government is doing, which we think are good ideas, and shout how much we agree with those things.

Now I'm stumped. Sunak's ties are OK sometimes, I suppose.

Thanks for making me laugh.

Can I steal that for a sign at an upcoming event?

@Scirocco Sure! I'm hoping we can all come together to express appreciation for our politician's wardrobe choices. Lovely. Takes my mind right off what's wrong in the world.

Coming soon to a Rwanda protest, then... 👍

I love the word "conflating" too. But honestly, I think you're conflating things I said with things I did not say at all, and things you thought I said, and things you wish I'd said, and things you wish I had or hadn't said that I did or didn't say. It all gets very confusing.

Well, @Dibilnik I wish you and other people could look at people doing horrible things and say "oh, those people are doing horrible things" rather than making excuses for them, but we don't always get what we want, do we?

No; just as I wish you could see more than just one "potential genocide" in the situation.

Never said I didn't see that. The geopolitical situation in the region presents a threat to everyone there.

You've previously claimed to have "no skin in the game". I have people I care about in Gaza and in Israel, actually, who are in danger because of this crisis. Being opposed to the actions of a far-right pro-war government and military doesn't mean I've stopped caring about people I know in Israel. The actions of the Israeli government and IDF make them less safe, not more safe. The growing far-right ideology in Israel means some people I know who had to flee Israel feel they may never be able to go back. For you, this may be some academic or distant issue. If Israel is destroyed, my friends there may well die. Just as my friends in Gaza are dying now.

Hamas have had in their charter about wanting to commit horrible acts. On October 7th they carried out a horrendous terrorist attack, worse than pretty much anyone thought they could possibly do. What they lacked and still lack is the capability to follow through on those wishes. The people responsible need to be brought to justice and the region stabilised, including protecting Israel from threats from Iran and its proxies. That is not achieved by killing more innocent people. We need to be better than that.

I don't think many reasonable people would have opposed the Israeli government taking action to defend their country and rescue hostages... until it became clear that they were using strategies which violated international law and demonstrated both genocidal wishes and the capability to follow through on those wishes. At that point, I don't think many reasonable people could look at their actions and think that's ok.

But maybe we shouldn't judge too harshly when people are killing unarmed civilians and humanitarian workers. After all, my friends who were executed at Al Shifa probably just zip-tied their own hands together and then shot themselves in the heads, right? Couldn't possibly have been those poor traumatised souls posting on social media about their adventures.

Absolutely. I think a lot of the people calling out the horribly anti Semitic actions taking place on the marches would agree with you there. If only people would stop burying their heads and call it out for what it actually is...

The lack of effective tackling of this on the London marches is part of why I currently wouldn't walk on one. There is no need for the toxicity that is festering there, and the organisers and the Met need to address it.

@Scirocco thank you

@Scirocco We live in such different worlds that I wouldn't blame you for despising my apparently blasé take on things. I am so sorry that your friends are being killed. There's no easy way to deal with that, and I'm sure that in your shoes I'd be at least as critical as you of the IDF.

As a relative outsider, I suppose I'm wary of playing into Hamas's hands by using social media to promote an anti-Israel stance. This war is being fought on many levels, some of them insidious. It's that anxiety that's fuelled many of my posts. But I will try to keep my sticky beak out of it.

Snap. Dealing with the issues would make more people supportive

Destroying the perpetrators? You destroy property, you kill human beings.
Your choice of word is telling.
Would you also agree that you and other posters really devalue the term antisemitic by branding it about for anything that you and them disagree with?
For example, being anti the Israeli government = antisemitic/ UN=antisemitic/ MSF=antisemitic. Do you see a pattern there?

@Auvergne63 I used destroy as I want Hamas, in terms of personnel, infrastructure and ideology to be no more. Broken, put beyond use, no longer usable.

Being anti-Israeli government is not in itself an anti-Semitic position, but arriving at that position is often borne of anti-Semitism, a denial of Israel's right to exist.

What would a reasonable action to 7/10 had been in your eyes? If you were BN's adviser, what would you have advised him? Lie prostrate and take what's coming to you?

Being anti-Israeli government is not in itself an anti-Semitic position, but arriving at that position is often borne of anti-Semitism, a denial of Israel's right to exist.
I am anti Israeli government and the actions carried out by the IDF. I am not antisemitic. Any government and army behaving this appalling way would receive my condemnation, not my support. Of course Israel has the right to exist but you must also recognize the right for Palestine to exist.
A reasonable response to the horrors of 07/10 would have been to take stock, formulate a plan, use the intelligence gathered by Mossad and act in a way that is proportional and measured. BN acted in haste and anger. partly, I think, because he failed miserably in heeding the warnings given to him of an eminent attack.

Another reason to stop the marches.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13383291/man-spits-Israel-counter-protester-police-officer-London.html

Because of this person who is displaying unacceptable behaviour……. the marches must be stopped in their entirety

BUT

the killing of children, women and men must carry on in Gaza, because of a minority of aggressors.

Are you sure?

It's a little disingenuous of you to suggest this is a solitary act, no? If you need to be reminded of the countless reports of anti Semitic aggression, intimidation of innocent members of the public (costa coffee anyone?)swastika flag flying, and the inability of a Jewish man to cross the road ...have a scroll back and remind yourself.

the inability of a Jewish man to cross the road
Is this the man who just happened, innocently, on a march with a camera crew and a body guard in tow? The man who wanted to go against the flow of the march? The man who obviously didn't have an agenda?
You will find agent provocateurs on both sides. It isn't black and white.
Marches are happening all over the world, including Israel. The world is waking up to the fact the Israeli government is behaving like a terrorist state, backed by the USA, the UK and Europe.

I don't think it's worthwhile picking over the Gideon falter episode again, it's been done to death and we clearly see it very differently. I don't have a problem with peaceful protests, but to deny the pro Palestinian marches have been troublesome for many people is gaslighting pure and simple. That I do take issue to.