To say the London Palestinian marches should be stopped

[KarmaCaramello]

They are weekly marches found to be organised by organisations with links to Hamas, and at least one ex Hamas member.

They are supporting a terrorist organisation that has just committed the deadliest day in Israel’s history. An Iranian dissident was arrested for holding a sign saying Hamas is Terrorist, despite the fact that they are a UK-designated terrorist organisation - because protestors assaulted him on seeing the sign.

If they were calling for peace and fewer casualties they would be condemning Hamas and calling for them to surrender.

AIBU to think this is deeply disturbing and has no place on the streets of London. Note - terrorist support is illegal and not protected speech.

The quotation isn't being used here to vilify Hamas though. The quotation has been posted in a thread about protests. People protesting are not a uniform mass of Hamas or Hamas supporters. And yet these accusations and insinuations are used to shut down debate, vilify innocent people and dehumanise people being killed and suffering.

How is the quotation applicable to the people being discussed here? Why is it posted in this thread? Questions like this matter because context matters. The post takes an entirely different meaning when posted here rather than, as it could have been, posted in its own thread or in a thread about the threats to international stability presented by international radicalisation and adoption of extremist/terrorist ideologies.

But apparently context of posts only matters in some circumstances, which seems somewhat hypocritical.

A shame you and others can rush to defend people conflating terrorists and their supporters with innocent people, while also saying it's unfair to judge people harshly and without more context when they post their own potential war crimes on social media for all to see.

@Mags48 I am saying calls for a unilateral ceasefire by Israel only, without condition or obligation to Hamas is based on naivety at best and anti-Semitism at worst. I would love to see peace in the middle east, but not on Hamas' terms.

@Dibilnik
If you truly don't remember, one particularly memorable example would be the thread about IDF soldiers posting on social media about their actions in Gaza, including mocking people they'd killed, posing for selfies, etc, in which you said it was unfair of people to criticise them as people didn't understand the context.

Re Holding Israel more accountable than China, Putin, those rapists on motorbikes and horses in Sudan, and Hamas/Iran, those Saudi bombers killing Yemeni babies ….

In my opinion it is because traditionally Israel has been thought of as having a democracy like ours and people more like us. That indeed many people who went to live in Israel were, or are, European and American, people from amongst ourselves.

Furthermore, we, Europe, and especially the USA are specifically enabling the Israeli government and IDF ( not Hamas) so that is why protests are against the IDF’s killing of so many women and children, and the destroying if so many homes, with few hostages having been released - all being done more or less in our name following on from, then continuing in what feels a disproportionate way, from the Hamas invasion and atrocities Oct 7.

Lots of people here did March about the USA and U.K. Iraq war, and that was before social media. It is even more clear now what a mistake that was, and Biden did try to warn Netanyahu.

Most likely it is the present Israeli government and how the IDF is behaving ( plenty of murders by sniping, and massacres) causing this feeling of anger against the present Israeli regime, as it has now gone well beyond horrific Hamas itself in its creation of carnage and havoc but without necessarily creating future security.

Also, I personally do not believe that Netanyahu’s yet more ‘pressure on Hamas’ plans will free any more hostages, except the odd one. Rather, more likely, more of the hostages will die, tragically. Accounts of the effects of bombings from some of the released hostages show how they were equally endangered alongside the Palestinian population.

I do think there should be very strict rules around the marches, and better police education, but disagree they should be stopped unless clearly being run by Hamas undercover ( so hope Prevent know if and when thus is the case).

@ScrollingLeaves if event organisers are affiliated in any way with Hamas or other groups, Prevent will know.

I think what I said was that I hesitate to ridicule people when they are dealing with catastrophic circumstances I can't even begin to imagine.

Re the "son of Hamas" quote saying that Western liberals are being naive when they march in solidarity, because they don't realise what they're ultimately supporting, I don't see how that's irrelevant to this thread.

So, @Dibilnik context matters, but some context (for people you agree with) matters more than others...

@Lampy123678

Because I genuinely believe that there is a strong chance that if someone held a placard condemning Hamas in or near the march then they would be attacked, as evidenced with the Iranian man.

This is intimidation, restricting freedom of protest and certainly not peaceful.

@Scirocco

"The removal of hostile or even terrorist forces from power through negotiations has been achieved before, elsewhere. It's not easy, but it is do-able. International peace-keeping forces have fulfilled and continue to fulfil peace-keeping roles around the world. It requires hard choices and a willingness to make sacrifices to achieve a greater goal, but negotiation is far more likely than violence to result in a lasting stability."

The only occasions where terrorist forces have been removed peacefully through negotiations is where they had already been defeated or where they realised that they would never achieve their objectives through force such as the IRA or FARC.

Although I agree removal by negotiations is more likely to result in lasting stability, I think you are being very naive in thinking that a violent organisation like Hamas is ever going to willingly or peacefully step down from power.

Who made those calls? I've never seen anyone calling for a unilateral ceasefire...it literally makes no sense.

If you were going to ignore all my questions you could have just not replied.

@Mags48

"Would you ask tell the pro-Israeli protesters to carry signs for the 34,000 victims of Gaza? Do they have to show us that they care about all the victims?

If not - why?"

Absolutely yes they should carry such signs.

As for why? To do so demonstrates that there is a balanced view and compassion for innocent victims on both sides of the conflict.

To not do so simply polarises the debate, makes a peaceful solution that much harder to achieve and wrongly implies that the lives of innocent civilians on one side are somehow worth less than those on the other side.

You've completely lost me there, sorry.

Absolutely this. Why would pro - Israel marchers NOT show recognition for ALL innocent civilians? It boggles the mind to Even suggest otherwise: yet we are consistently told there is no place for Israeli victims to be remembered in the pro - Palestinian marches.

People are not marching in solidarity with or support of Hamas.

A suggestion was made at a discussion about an event to support keeping in mind all victims, that there were signs along those lines, to say how all lives lost were important. I was told that there were no innocent people in Gaza, and that the lives of civilians killed there were, in fact, worth less on account of their ethnicity, faith and perceived loyalties.

Of course not. I think what "son of Hamas" has been saying is that it might have the same effect, though.

When has Mosab Hassan Youseff said that? What did he say? Who did he say it about? What is his reasoning?

At the moment, there has been one post from someone, sharing a post from X which has no context. The ascribed quotation does not specifically refer to peace activists, human rights campaigners, etc who are organising campaigns calling for ceasefires and humanitarian aid. It says "Hamas supporters".

People organising events and campaigning for peace are not Hamas supporters.

Accusing people of supporting a proscribed terrorist organisation is actually a pretty serious accusation to make, and in this setting does feed into the old 'divided loyalties' trope. If context matters for people posting selfies and publicising their torturing of detainees, then perhaps it should also be relevant when conflating human rights concerns and supporting terrorism.

That was a terrible thing to say . I think some people actively try to offend and hurt others because of the anonymity this site offers . It is not acceptable. I presume the post was reported and deleted?
I

I've reported some disgusting comments regarding Palestinian people on this thread alone that still aren't removed. Have you reported any?

No, no, that was said to me in person, I've seen similar things on here and other sites though.

@Scirocco

"I was told that there were no innocent people in Gaza, and that the lives of civilians killed there were, in fact, worth less on account of their ethnicity, faith and perceived loyalties."

That is both offensive, unacceptable and what's more factually incorrect.

It does however highlight the deepening divisions and polarisation of views. You see it in a lot of conflicts where the other side are given national or ethic labels and viewed as less worthy of life than the other side.

It also shows the need to be able to see the conflict from both viewpoints in order to reach a peaceful negotiated compromise solution, otherwise the solution will simply become last man standing.

@1dayatatime one of the worst things I've read online recently was someone mocking the Iranian attack because it "only hurt one" child, who the person posting didn't think mattered that much because they didn't meet that person's criteria for being a 'proper Israeli' due to ethnicity. All lives need to be valued, and people need to stop dehumanising others.

Absolutely this .

You only have to look him up on YouTube to see that he's been saying pretty much the same thing, loud and clear, the whole time. That's why I thought there was no point asking for context with him. He's not exactly subtle!

But you've completely misunderstood. He's not saying that all the people marching in support of Gaza are Hamas supporters. Quite the opposite: he is saying that people acting in perfectly good faith are unwittingly helping the Hamas propaganda machine, and that a lot of well-meaning Western protesters simply cannot see how they are being manipulated and do not understand what's at stake.