To say the London Palestinian marches should be stopped

[KarmaCaramello]

They are weekly marches found to be organised by organisations with links to Hamas, and at least one ex Hamas member.

They are supporting a terrorist organisation that has just committed the deadliest day in Israel’s history. An Iranian dissident was arrested for holding a sign saying Hamas is Terrorist, despite the fact that they are a UK-designated terrorist organisation - because protestors assaulted him on seeing the sign.

If they were calling for peace and fewer casualties they would be condemning Hamas and calling for them to surrender.

AIBU to think this is deeply disturbing and has no place on the streets of London. Note - terrorist support is illegal and not protected speech.

I'm not talking about this video, that someone mentioned 6 weeks ago that I had never heard of until you started obsessively mentioning it on this thread.

I'm talking about Rachel Corrie.

No of course they shouldn't be stopped.

We are witnessing indiscriminate mass slaughter, on innocent civilians, many of them babies and children.

Frankly there aren't enough protests at this stage. Not near enough.

I never saw/found that video you just mentioned, and not when I I looked either.

Sorry, I forgot to say, yes, perhaps Trippily saw the fake burying with a bulldozer one you showed.

In my view, very little thought is given to the veracity, claimed or otherwise, of footage people see on social media platforms.

A lot of people have been taken in by fake footage from the Syrian conflict and other events that has been passed off as Israeli or otherwise in this conflict. Even AI images has fooled a lot - I was one of several who spotted PSF/PIRAs Gerry Adams using a fake AI image. Think he eventually deleted it. You can tell its AI by looking at fingers and toes plus they look too 'shiny'.

More thinking and discussion should be had!

Unfortunately, fake videos are made to trigger strong emotional reactions in people. Very, very few will then admit they were duped.

It's a problem.

Thank you for explaining.

I thought some videos of Netanyahu were AI because of the heinous things he was saying and his weird appearance.

Then I realised he was just saying horrible genocidal things because that's who he is and the weird appearance was badly applied foundation that makes him look like he's wearing a wax mask.

You're welcome!

Psychology has made a lot of effort to explain these kinds of behaviours which is also relevant to why some people attend these protests in London.

"Vosoughi, Roy, and Aral (2018) found that false information spreads more rapidly on social media than true information, primarily due to its novelty and emotional impact.

Pariser (2011) introduced the concept of the “filter bubble”, where social media algorithms create personalised information environments that reinforce users’ existing beliefs.

Durupınar et al. (2016) provide insights into how psychological parameters can be used to simulate crowd behaviours from calm audiences to aggressive mobs. Applying these principles to social media crowds, emotional triggers in disinformation can transform passive groups into active disseminators of information. Use of charged imagery activates emotional responses that lead to more proactive sharing and defending of disinformation, mimicking the psychological shift from audience to mob."

The social media bubble definitely makes things so much faster and worse, especially as people usually do not change their minds as new, important information comes in much later.

This is also an example of why accurate reporting of events is important. Blatant lies have been presented as truth, again and again, but even when disproven or when the absence of evidence is shown, people still believe the lies and use them to defend their own actions and the actions of governments.

The phenomenon described in my post does work in both ways, different directions, amongst different groups, etc, yes.

However, what Hamas claims always spreads much, much faster than any other narrative. Social media is one aspect, but Western media also amplifies it with a caveat a lot of people don't seem to take into account, i.e., "Hamas run Gaza Health Ministry".

In the mix would be behaviours such as antisemitism and islamophobia.

A particular feedback loop is then created.

Media publications can also get things very wrong for various reasons which then worsens the problem. That's why Appeal To Authority is an important fallacy to keep in mind too.

Terrorist groups DO tend to be much, much faster at getting their narrative out than Sovereign Powers can. Governments are slower, especially as they have to investigate certain things. Whilst they're doing that, they're often tied up in Lawfare as NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence made clear in their 2019 report which I've discussed previously in late 2023.

Hamas is what military analysts call a hybrid threat.

In the West, we should be more restrained and wait in order for the full extent of a situation to be ascertained. After all, we're not in immediate danger. But the psychology as mentioned above explains why many don't do this.

Hence, protests in major cities.

The onslaught has been happening for six months. How much longer should we wait until we make our minds up?

I understand what you are saying here about misinformation and social media communication.

However, my main concern is a narrative being pushed in which people are encouraged to do mental gymnastics which then allows them to justify the deaths and disablement of thousands of innocent people, including children.

I think people are protesting because they are less sheltered from the human cost of war than they used to be, and they are appalled by the hypocrisy of our government.

Each side will wage a propaganda war and there will be people who get swept up in that.

It isn’t logical to conclude that the reason an entire group of people are protesting is because they don’t understand the situation or have been sucked in by social media.

This analysis could be viewed as an attempt to persuade people that their perception of events is wrong and hence encourage them to stop protesting.

FYI I stick to viewing official media sources and I don’t have any social media bar being on mumsnet.

@DownNative I think that's a rather over-simplified and one-sided perception of why people are involved in efforts to raise awareness, support people in Palestine and call for changes in how governments are acting in this situation.

Many people involved in fundraising and campaigning events for the people of Palestine have been involved with humanitarian work, including work in Palestine and the wider Middle East, for years. Some of us have carried out work on the ground there, worked with reputable organisations, completed qualifications and studied subjects relevant to the complexities of the situations. It is simply not accurate to attribute the existence of protests and other events to 'fake news', and indeed doing so without a more nuanced understanding of the situation would be an example of the very bias against which you're warning.

Also, if journalists were allowed into Gaza we wouldn’t have so many people relying on social media for their information.

So one way to mitigate the risk would be to allow journalists in, but Israel won’t, so they have more to gain from information being reported via social media, which they can then work to discredit.

On the contrary, it's an explanation for why these protests occur in major cities, often following situations where the full circumstances is not known.

Indeed, it's a potential explanation for the behaviour of SOME proportion of those who attend such protests.

And I did say SOME people a few posts ago which it seems you missed. Hence your overly defensive response! 🧐

It is entirely appropriate to posit the existence of fake news as a possible motivating factor in these protests. The same can be said of other protests on other issues.

Indeed, the same phenomenon occurred on a smaller scale in London with the Republican Movement's Troops Out in the 1980s. Many who attended didn't know as much as they thought they did at the time although many had noble intentions despite the reality their demands would've made the situation worse. Thankfully, Troops Out never really cracked that nut.

I think you'll find I did NOT "conclude that the reason an entire group of people are protesting is because they don’t understand the situation or have been sucked in by social media"!

Check again. 🤦‍♂️

So, you made a Strawman Argument which is a logical fallacy.

Bear in mind also that official media sources can get things wrong for a variety of reasons. That's why the Appeal To Authority Fallacy exists.

I'm not sure why you consider it "overly defensive" to point out that the very bias you're discussing appears demonstrated by some of what you're saying.

You are no doubt right but they are not alone.

I don’t know that Russia is slow to put out the information they want spread true or not.

And it is known that Israel has a workforce dedicated to their propaganda ‘hasbara’ (?) The command complex model shown to the world that looked like it was from from OO7 under Al Shifa!
The oven burnt beheaded babies* - some versions told to Biden.

(*Caveat children were killed. There was a massacre.)

Maybe you meant fake videos and photos though.

Israel makes some lovely, well edited promotional ones. Then the soldiers themselves have posted lots of selfies which they are proud of but don’t look too good to some of us.

Hamas Authority figures for deaths are considered to have been more or less accurate in the past.

But this is a thread about whether there should be more marches for Palestine.
Maybe there should be one for false information going around, where ever it comes from and whoever produces it.

You are a go-to person for a video check if one seems doubtful anyway, so if I find one will try to flag you.

Simply because your post ignored and/or didn't take note of the fact I very clearly stated SOME people.

The content of your response indicated you took my post in a different way to that indicated by my very own words.

Hence, your post about what "many people" are involved in which isn't at all relevant to my point that some people are taken in by fake footage.

That's what defensiveness looks like as it ignores the crucial nuance I inserted of SOME people. 🧐

In your post of 09:41, you concluded: "Hence, protests in major cities". I'm simply pointing out that the bias you're discussing is not the sole reason for this.

That doesn't correlate to saying EVERYONE involved in such protests. 🤷‍♂️

Maybe it's a language thing. Linguistically, "hence, xyz" is used to indicate "this thing is the cause (not a cause, but the cause)" in the absence of clarification of the existence of other factors. If that's not what you meant, that's fine.

That’s exactly what I took it to mean. No reference to other reasons.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13433075/Pro-Palestinian-demonstrators-chant-Intifada-revolution-UK-government-watch-Palestine-coming-Met-police-make-arrest.html

They do cost a lot to run

Intifada revolution is a call for terrorism. Yes arrest those chanting this.