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Conflict in the Middle East

Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

345 replies

TooBigForMyBoots · 03/04/2024 01:01

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.Sad

OP posts:
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quantumbutterfly · 06/04/2024 00:51

Israel gives much to US and vice versa, that is co-dependency.

Gaza receives billions of aid - that is dependency.

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/04/2024 01:54

What does Israel give to the US that it can't do without or get elsewhere @quantumbutterfly?

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mids2019 · 06/04/2024 02:37

The UK is utterly reliant on US for defence in reality on a global scale especially against nuclear adversaries. If the U.S. Didn't supply arms to Israel it would soon be defeated by the vastly larger populations of hostile local states. Not supplying arms is tantamount to asking for its non existence which I suspect many of displaced wavers in London want.

Strangely there is no talk of Iran shamelessly supply Hamas and Hezbollah as well as Russia.

mids2019 · 06/04/2024 05:28

I think from a global perspective it's important that we have as many liberal democracies as possible that respect women's rights for one. There are so many rushing in to portray Israel as a failed state when it borders Gaza which is literally run by a jihadi death cult which didn't exactly show humanitarian values and respect for women on October 7th.

Is the US a failed state because it supplies arms to Israel: No
Did the UK and US fail as states after going to war in the middle East and Aghanistan: No

There are other states that could be labelled as failed states because of the persecution of minorities - side long glance at China -yet is it labelled as a failed
or failing state: No

So why the focus on Israel as potentially failing? Is it because a lot of people don't wish it's existence?

There were arguments about the formation of the state of Israel and there are Israelis that have a wide variety of views of the direction of their state including relations with Palestinian territories and such as things as settlements. However one thing we should be aware of is that differing views can be aired in a democracy and indeed it looks like the current leader may lose his job in forthcoming elections. the free airing of views is something not enjoyed by many in the middle east.

I suppose to an extent what ever out thought about conflict in the middle East it should be celebrated that there is a thriving democracy there that allows the protection of the Jewish people who have suffered the worst forms of discrimination over millennia and suffered a genocide of such proportions that many find it hard to ensvisage. People gain protection for their culture and beliefs from their state (and armed forces which protect their liberty).......Jews deserve that.

Israel is not a failing state by any measure and though there is current concern about his conflict from her democratic partners this is no way means Israel is going not enjoy long term friendship and support.

As the national anthem of Israel testaments the desire of the people is to have a free and sovereign state. A bit like the one I live in.

PeasfullPerson · 06/04/2024 07:53

I’ve said this so many times, people are focused on Israel because our government has been supporting them despite their disproportionate response.

The majority of the UK public quite rightly don’t support the indiscriminate killing and starvation of other human beings, especially children. They see the cruelty and unfairness.

It’s infuriating that the public are expected to be good citizens, and then turn a blind eye to this when the government wants them to. What sort of lesson is that?

quantumbutterfly · 06/04/2024 08:34

Oh, there's that red hand again. How lovely.

Sussurations · 06/04/2024 08:38

@mids2019 thanks for your posts (I won’t quote them as they’re long)

I’m glad you mentioned the role of women in Israeli society, in a region where women’s rights are not exactly paramount and indeed have sometimes gone a hell of a long way back from where they once were (Iran for example).

Ditto the difference between trade and aid and the strategic significance of Israel as a western ally in the region.

I think some posters would benefit from zooming out a bit and looking at the bigger world picture instead of the intense focus on Israel. I accept that this thread is about Israel but if we are talking about ‘failed states’ a bit more perspective might be helpful.

Sussurations · 06/04/2024 08:43

PeasfullPerson · 06/04/2024 07:53

I’ve said this so many times, people are focused on Israel because our government has been supporting them despite their disproportionate response.

The majority of the UK public quite rightly don’t support the indiscriminate killing and starvation of other human beings, especially children. They see the cruelty and unfairness.

It’s infuriating that the public are expected to be good citizens, and then turn a blind eye to this when the government wants them to. What sort of lesson is that?

What do you mean by ‘lesson’?

P3achykeenjellybean · 06/04/2024 08:52

I haven't read the article, may do later. But Jonathan Freedland is very interesting on a podcast called Unholy: Two Jews on the News,alongside Yonit Levi. I highly recommend it.

MCOut · 06/04/2024 09:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lion400 · 06/04/2024 10:13

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 09:34

They are MY COUNTRIES. Not theirs.

Iraq is my country. It is in my country that Yazidi women are force fed contraceptives, and where thousands of them are missing after being taken as ISIS sex slaves, or where 19 of them were burned alive as hundreds of people watched for the crime of refusing to convert to Islam.

Yazidis, native to Iraq for thousands of years have faced 72 genocides. Seventy two. And as Kurds, most of them look "white". I assume them standing up to their oppressors and saying such oppression is barbaric and wrong, is therefore in your book also "white supremacy"? I suppose if they were to say "actually we are indigenous to this place and we want out own independent country" that you'd call them "white supremacist zionists"? Or probably not, because you'd see how mental that would be huh.

All of that said, it actually doesn't matter what my heritage is. Any person - regardless of their nationality or racial heritage is allowed, actually should be encouraged, to express a preference for democracy over theocracy and for freedom over oppression.

Whilst you probably believe yourself to be an "anti-racist", defending oppressive regimes isn't anti-racist. Those regimes are extremely racist. They engage in slavery, murder, and horrific marginalisation of minorities. Google what's going on in Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Yemen.

Your attitude implies that you have a complete disregard for the human rights of others if those depriving them of them of those rights are brown enough for it to be "cultural". I am quite sure if someone marched into Leicester square and burned some girls for not converting to Islam, or took away their house because they were not Christian, you'd be horrified and would see that as "backwards", violent, horrific and wrong.

But that's what happens in places where people do not have a right to life, religious freedom or equality. It is what happens to them every day. So, please, spare me your virtue. Oh my Gawd. Running around calling Mizrahi Jews "white supremacist zionists" is just...groan. As @Sussurations says I bet my bottom dollar 100 years ago you'd have been saying quite the opposite.

💯agree

Your attitude implies that you have a complete disregard for the human rights of others if those depriving them of them of those rights are brown enough for it to be "cultural".

NeverDropYourMooncup · 06/04/2024 10:15

TooBigForMyBoots · 06/04/2024 00:37

That is dependency rather than co-dependency.

The USA is an ocean and several time zones away from Israel and its continent. It could switch its financial aid to any country in the region and what's to stop it? It could adopt an isolationist approach and cut aid to Israel. The US electorate could vote against aid. Or they have to fork out to rebuild after natural disasters.

That looks like dependency, not co-dependency.

Ummm, OK. Bar picking up and moving the country somewhere else (which apparently some on this thread want to do with mass transportation/deportations. Not at all problematic, that), there's nothing else the US or other countries might want or need from the area/region/diplomacy/politics/intelligence/geographical location that other countries in the region won't sell to the highest bidder?

I know Saudi Arabia was quite happy to be used for the Gulf War, but I'm not convinced they'd be quite so happy if they were portrayed as the US best friend and source of all information about other countries in the region because they were dependent upon the US to sell oil to.

mids2019 · 06/04/2024 11:26

@Sussurations
armed forces
I think it is important to note how democracy is a fragile thing and is always at threat from totalitarian regimes and ideologies including Islamism.

One of the only things that stands between me in a democracy and those that would look to destroy it is well equipped armed forces.

I like the following story.

A young boy is walking on a beach with his Grandfather and suddenly a jet fighter on training exercise roars above.

The startled boy turns to the old man and asks, 'what was that!'

The old man is silent for a moment then wistfully drops his face into a frown and then quietly but firmly speaks, ' that was the sound of freedom'.....

mids2019 · 06/04/2024 13:41

There a host of journalists criticising some aspects of Israel's actions in the press and as I have said previously there may be some merit in some of that criticism e.g. the provision of humanitarian aid.

We have criticism allowed both by our press and press within Israel. Why because we like Israel have a free press and freedom of expression. I think that's an ideal to fight and many have fought and died for the ideal of democracy and liberty. It is a recurrent human theme. We have a range of expression here; that is free speech.

There are so many countries where free speech is shut down including many in the middle east. We have 200 000 protesters in the streets of London protesting against Israeli and our government policy. How many Palestinians could march through Gaza protesting against the government of Hamas....none....their lives would be in immediate danger.

A failing state? A good metric of a failing state is one where liberty is limited and who can tell me which other states in the middle East come anywhere near liberal societies? Which other state would entertain a female leader in that region? How many other states have free and fair elections which is to my mind a litmus test of a functioning state I would wish to live in.

Why would we call Israel a Pariah state? Israel is not ostracised from the global community or will be (as in a way Russia is perhaps). Israel particpates freely in sporting events for example. Using a word pariah which literally means outcast or reject against a nation set up for a people that know that term initimatly throughout history might be offensive to some.

I say again, no Israel is not failing, will not fail and has friends around the world who are freedom loving democracies where we are free to practise religion if you so desire. Disagree with me but I do like the idea of living in one of those freedom loving democracies.

stomachamelon · 07/04/2024 09:13

Article about the situation in Israel and the fear of returning home.

apple.news/AF8f2eIiATRSuMncFVM4OPQ

TooBigForMyBoots · 08/04/2024 01:56

mids2019 · 06/04/2024 02:37

The UK is utterly reliant on US for defence in reality on a global scale especially against nuclear adversaries. If the U.S. Didn't supply arms to Israel it would soon be defeated by the vastly larger populations of hostile local states. Not supplying arms is tantamount to asking for its non existence which I suspect many of displaced wavers in London want.

Strangely there is no talk of Iran shamelessly supply Hamas and Hezbollah as well as Russia.

If the US didn't supply arms to Israel it would soon be defeated by the vastly larger populations of hostile local states.

That's a precarious situation. To be completely(?) dependant on one other country a long way away.

OP posts:
quantumbutterfly · 08/04/2024 06:36

Seems like most countries are dependent on each other. Even 'superpowers' need allies.
Who would you prefer to be dependent on I wonder?

The world is in a precarious situation, it would be a shame to break it.

mids2019 · 09/04/2024 07:23

@quantumbutterfly

it's just a fact Brit win historically has relied in the US. I don't think this is anything to be ashamed about as it is a geopolitical reality. However it looks like we may have to go out GDP in defence as the US wants other countries to pull their weight with defence.

I guess Israel is not as wealthy so needs a disproportionate news of support but that support has to be given.....or it doesn't exist.

Scirocco · 09/04/2024 08:15

mids2019 · 06/04/2024 13:52

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.mildenhall.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3503329/raf-mildenhall-provides-support-to-israeli-air-force/%23:~:text%3DROYAL%2520AIR%2520FORCE%2520MILDENHALL%252C%2520England%2520%252D%252D,operation%2520between%2520our%2520allied%2520nations.&ved=2ahUKEwizr_7Jzq2FAxVLUUEAHeYCC0oQFnoECBIQBQ&usg=AOvVaw1hj1Ud47grul0wFc0IArFP

The RAF provide support to the Israeli air force. Do you think they provide support to an air force of a failing state that is not an ally? Do you think they would provide support to a fellow professional air force that is committing genocide?

A quick Google shows the the two air forces are maintaining relations as is appropriate.

I really do think people should take a long hard look at where this state the UK has allies in the world before trying to label them a potentially failing

I don't think the RAF can be taken as a reliable independent indicator of morality and ethics. The RAF will go where the government decides they go and work with whoever the government tells them to work with.

At the moment, we have a UK government that's rather far to the right, and about which there are multiple issues regarding human rights, individual and systemic adherence to UK and international laws, and probity. If a member of the current UK government told me the sky was blue, I'd check.

mids2019 · 09/04/2024 18:31

@Scirocco

If Labour got into power this would still be an established relationship. Israel need an air force to defend against threats like Iran. It may be them who have to limit Iran's nuclear ambitions for example.

As well as Israel's integrity considerations it is good to have an ally in the region.

Scirocco · 09/04/2024 18:48

mids2019 · 09/04/2024 18:31

@Scirocco

If Labour got into power this would still be an established relationship. Israel need an air force to defend against threats like Iran. It may be them who have to limit Iran's nuclear ambitions for example.

As well as Israel's integrity considerations it is good to have an ally in the region.

Not sure why you've @'d me - what's the question or point I'm to get?

mids2019 · 09/04/2024 19:50

@Scirocco

it was no just to point out Israel is our ally in the region.

Scirocco · 09/04/2024 20:06

mids2019 · 09/04/2024 19:50

@Scirocco

it was no just to point out Israel is our ally in the region.

The UK has many countries with which it has alliances and treaties. I'm not sure I understand you - are you suggesting that exempts those countries from criticism? Having an alliance or treaty with the UK doesn't mean a country is automatically a shining example of integrity or that people must support it.