Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.

Being an ally just means that countries are useful to each other, I wish it was down to something more admirable than that. I wish for a better world, where people care more about each other, where those who behave well are rewarded and those who hurt others are punished. This is not our world, this is just what us plebs are meant to believe in. It keeps us in check. Israel is not our ally because it offers any shining example of humanity.

I think we are allies to Israel not only because of their political and trade utility (although these are important) but also because they are a liberal democracy who largely share our values.

It is certainly the case that countries act in accordance with their interests though: Nicaragua's recent case against Germany in the ICJ being a perfect example. Their human rights record is appalling and they certainly don't care about Palestinians, but Iran has given Nicaragua hundreds of millions over the last 10 years to build a hydroelectric dam and power plants, and are on the verge of investing in a 6 billion dollar oil refinery there. So Nicaragua are happy to be Iran's proxy in their attacks on Israel and the West. I'm not sure Iran and Nicaragua actually share any values apart from anti-West, anti- human rights and pro-dictatorship.

Countries don't have to be perfect in order to be allies.

I found a graph posted recently on cumulative US aid since 1946 interesting. The US have given Egypt the same amount of economic aid as Israel over the last 80 years: about $80billion each. They've additionally given Israel about 2.5 times more military aid than Egypt ($220 billion compared to Egypt's $80billion over those 80 years). Israel of course have to defend themselves against constant military attacks, which Egypt doesn't - eg the US has spent $3billion on the iron dome). Currently the US give about $3.5billion in military aid to Israel per year (no economic aid in recent years) compared to $1.4billion in aid to Egypt.

https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts

My reason for comparing to Egypt is to show that contrary to the usual narrative, Israel isn't unique in being supported by the US. Also not unique in being supported despite human rights issues. Egypt are a strong ally and generally a positive force for peace, but far from perfect. The world isn't made up of 'goodies' and 'baddies'.

I obviously mean that Nicaragua's human rights record is appalling. Not Germany's!

Early morning bad grammar!

Failed no.
Fascist yes.

@Scirocco
indeed not. Friends sometimes criticise each other and we have criticised certain element s of the prosecution of the war. We are long term allies though in way Iran certainly isn't along side it's proxy Hamas.

I think we have to accept in the UK our international alliances and I think this has to manifest itself as support for our armed forces of a least respect of their roles in our defence.

The armed forces of the UK and by extension it's allies are the r for our protection and the protection of our inferesrs. We would not align ourselves fundamentally to states where we didn't have strong ties.

Israel is a democracy and all Israeli citizens (Jewish and Palestinian) can vote freely in elections. People who are not citizens of Israel obviously can't.

Do you think the citizens of Iran and Syria have the same freedom to choose their leadership? (spoiler alert: they don't)

Well when pretty much every country in the world is urging restraint, and Israel pledge to ignore that, it’s pretty clear they are now a rogue state. It’s the essence of the definition of rogue state.

edit to add a perfectly reasonable definition from Wiki:

”Rogue state" (or sometimes "outlaw state") is a term applied by some international theorists to states that they consider threatening to the world's peace”

Iran is the rogue state (funding terrorism/ encouraging October 7th attack etc )

@Limesodaagain

Iran is the rogue state

Theyre not threatening escalation though are they. Israel is doing that, against the advice of the whole world.

Israel is the rogue state.

Iran is threatening escalation because it funds terrorism with the aim of destabilising the region ( as I’m sure you know)

@Limesodaagain

Iran is threatening escalation

Not right now they’re not. That’s only Israel, and you can mental gymnastics all you like, the entire world is not calling for restraint upon any one else apart from Israel.

You think Iran have stopped funding terrorism? That’s mental gymnastics…

Iran is a pariah state. They should be sanctioned until their government fails (which might not take that long). The fact that Arab states joined in shooting down missiles bound for Israel tells you everything that you need to know about their standing within the region.

However, Israel are meant to be more civilised and smarter than they are proving to be under the current coalition. They have lost the West’s sympathy due to their disgraceful conduct in Gaza.

Iran handed them a PR lifeline with their stupid and pointless symbolic ‘attack’ where they intended to do no meaningful damage. If Israel squanders that by acting disproportionately, they risk losing the military and financial support that they need.

100%, every word of your post.

You think you've seen it all and then you see the Iran revisionists on Mumsnet.

HTH:

https://twitter.com/elicalebon/status/1780426488749371420

Agreed

I think that Netanyahu retaliates against Iran again we should stay out of it. They've been warned there isn't support for it. I think if they proceed, it's on them.

The response of countries such as the UK, the US, France and also - and this is huge -ME countries such as Jordan and Saudi Arabia to Iran's attack shows that Israel does not stand alone and is far from a pariah state.

I listened to the Unholy podcast special episode on the Iranian attack and it was (as usual) very interesting. It described the world's reaction to Israel as being along the lines of "Respond to the situation in Gaza as though Iran didn't exist. Respond to the situation with Iran as though Gaza didn't exist." I'm paraphrasing a bit but I thought that was spot on.