Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.

“It will become a pariah as will its inhabitants I think people should be very careful about making statements like this, about any state or country.”

curious, would you extend that caution to North Korea or Iran? Two countries I’ve repeatedly seen referred to as pariahs without objection.

Months ago they had the support of the US, UK and the EU now they are being criticised by pretty much every country in the world.

No they are not facing being a failed state right now. Long term this will have changed everything for them. I think as they continue with this war and then as more war crimes are exposed that we’ll find them becoming more politically isolated.

if I wrote that about Gaza and the Palestinian people I’d quite rightly be piled on.

and then Bridgetta adding “ruthless” to that.

This whole thread is disgusting.

No one worries about saying things like that about North Korea or Russia.

Why should people be 'very careful' about saying that?

I don’t think shame had anything to do with it. It was money and the fact that it was an unsustainable system with an oppressed majority so it was prudent to negotiate whilst they still had the opportunity to secure their own interests. Once Israel truly loses US backing it will work on them too.

A disproportionate number of those human rights activists and left leaning people were murdered on October 7th. Shani Louk for example, didn’t join the IDF, Vivian Silver, from Women Wage Peace, yocheved Lifschitz who drove Palestinians to Israeli hospitals for treatment who was held hostage confronted Sinwar about this. Oded her husband, and fellow driver, remains in captivity.

https://www.reuters.com/world/the-peace-movement-was-orphaned-says-son-activist-killed-oct-7-2023-11-16/

That’s your views and you’re entitled to them. From what we’ve seen from Israeli society these past 6 months I don’t believe what I’ve said is inaccurate. The statements of genocidal intent submitted in the ICJ case were just one indication of how Israeli society views Palestinians. Add to that the hundreds of tik toks of Israeli soldiers in Gaza (and their telegram channels), the settler protests against humanitarian aid, calls to resettle Gaza, the songs calling for the destruction of Gaza and the Palestinians and the hundreds of other examples I could cite then you get a picture of the current dominant culture.

in my views what’s disgusting is the killing of 40,000 innocent people and using famine as weapon. Any state that does that has lost its way.

I’m not (in any way) minimizing the killings in the kibbutzim. That was horrific and criminal. Let’s not kid ourselves though, advocates for peace and the political left in Israel had been in decline for years before October 7th. Hamas isn’t responsible for wiping it out, that’s been a gradual shift in internal Israeli politics over many years starting I would say even with the assassination of Rabin.

Indeed.
I don't think this is a thread for nuanced debate.

Interesting you say that but you won’t contribute your views on the question? I’ve asked you to share them but you declined (which is completely fine, but then don’t criticize the lack of nuance?). It can’t be a nuanced debate if those with opposing views don’t engage in discussion. Isn’t that the purpose of this board?

Internationally Israel has blotted itself. Its disgusting their total disregard of international law and are committing war crimes - the irony really. Israel is turning into a pariah so let the allies row in behind them BUT its the day to day image of israel to joe public is what matters to ordinary israelis and that image is shot.
There are 2 sides to every story. Hamas are terrorists and still have hostages which is so terrible.
I do think israel is on a path of self destruct- bombing that aid truck with international aid workers. I mean aid trucks are now turning around. Netanyahus strategy has done great work in increasing Support for gaza internationally and breeding a whole wave of future crazies

‘How is it then that he/the population cant see that this will turn the world against Israel. That will lead to Israel's failure.’

One of the points that Israel is making that seems to resonate amongst many Western community members is phrasing the war as a battle between Western cultural values and the more negative perception of Islam. Using Islam as the BoogeyMan.
’If we fail against Hamas, the extremists will overrun you and all you hold dear’
Untrue, but I’ve heard a lot of people express fear over the headline-grabbing terror and violent incidents in Britain and France for example, and the othering of Muslims.
ignorant, but very effective.
And no, unless the USA turns off the funding, I don’t see Israel becoming a failed state for Israeli citizens.

As a modern state, Israel was set up 76 years ago and has since formed a thriving democratic country. It has one of the highest GDPs in the world. It's a hub of industry and innovation, with huge advances in medicine, agriculture and technology. It is home to million of Jews, Druze, Muslims and Christians who live side by side in peace and equality under law (something never achieved in any other country East of Europe) and it's human rights record falls equivalent to Italy and Greece, despite being in the middle east. Whilst many dislike Israel's current government, it has a robust constitution and rule of law and is truly an inspirational example of a thriving modern state.

Why on earth would you think it was a failed state? A "failed state" is described as "a state whose political or economic system has become so weak that the government is no longer in control". None of those things remotely apply.

All other states set up in a similar timeframe have had no such similar successes, despite many of them having astronomical oil wealth. With the exception of Jordan, which is bolstered by extreme wealth of it's citizens, every single surrounding country falls in the bottom 20 on the human rights freedom scale and has a form of dictatorial government and are almost exclusively ethnostates with populations of 95% Muslim or more.

Israel has thrived, despite being invaded within 3 hours of it's inception and almost every day since then. Clearly that upsets you. Perhaps you need to think about why that is!

Israel has received hundreds of billions of dollars in American military and economic aid since it was “set up”. Without that aid, and the ongoing political and diplomatic cover the US provides, they wouldn’t have the thriving economy you speak about (which is currently tanking btw). As for equality under law for Israel’s non Jewish citizens, that simply isn’t true unless you have an alternative interpretation of its Nation State law?

its human rights record is actually appalling and it’s long been accused of apartheid by its own human rights institutions as well as international ones. Its recent armed conflict in Gaza is par for the course.

I’m not upset at Israel thriving. I’m upset that it occupies and degrades another group of people and that as time passes it’s seemingly becoming even more violent and racist.

Also, I think it’s important to note that the OP’s question isn’t if Israel IS a failed state, but rather if it’s on it’s way to becoming one.

It’s true that the USA gives vast sums to Israel, initially for economic and military use , but in the last 15+years that money is primarily for military purposes and has to be predominantly spent in the USA (military companies ) so it is mutually beneficial.

The funding usually makes up 15% of Israel’s defense budget.

https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts
How does Israel use the aid?Most of the aid—approximately $3.3 billion a year—is provided as grants under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program, funds that Israel must use to purchase U.S. military equipment and services. Israel has also historically been permitted to use a portion of its FMF aid to buy equipment from Israeli defense firms—a benefit not granted to other recipients of U.S. military aid—but this domestic procurement is to be phased out in the next few years. U.S. aid reportedly accounts for some 15 percent of Israel’s defense budget. Israel, like many other countries, also buys U.S. military products outside of the FMF program.
Additionally, $500 million a year is slated for Israeli and joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense programs, in which the two countries collaborate on the research, development, and production of these systems used by Israel, including the Iron Dome, David’s Sling, and Arrow II. Iron Dome was solely developed by Israel, but the United States has been a production partner since 2014. For instance, the U.S. military contractor Raytheon manufactures Tamir interceptor missiles for Israel’s Iron Dome at its facilities in Arizona.

Probably.

It's the aim of the surrounding Arab states to get rid of Israel which is after all a place created by the UN after WW2.
As long as Israel continues the conflict will continue and the two sides will become more intransigent.

OK so another Israel bashing thread.

Using defined terms then no, its not a failed state. "A failed state is a state that has lost its ability to fulfill fundamental security and development functions, lacking effective control over its territory and borders. Common characteristics of a failed state include a government incapable of tax collection, law enforcement, security assurance, territorial control, political or civil office staffing, and infrastructure maintenance.[2] When this happens, widespread corruption and criminality, the intervention of state and non-state actors, the appearance of refugees and the involuntary movement of populations, sharp economic decline, and military intervention from both within and outside the state are much more likely to occur." I've cut and pasted this definition.

Failed states include Afghanistan, the Central African Republic, DR Congo, Haiti, Libya, Mali, Myanmar, Somalia, South Sudan, Sudan, Syria,and Yemen. There are concerns that Lebanon and South Africa are almost there. Yes someone will say this isn't about them, but for the combative posters my response is those are examples of failed states. Not that anyone really cares.

In my opinion Israel is putting itself at risk of being a failed state, by breaking international law and acting against the interests of its own security and its allies.
The Israeli government and many of the Israeli population seem to be living in a fantasy land where the day after tomorrow involves the complete destruction of Hamas and increased safety. The world wide rise in antisemitism shows their actions have had the opposite impact.
Israel as a country appears to be stuck in a victim mentality with hyper sensitivity to threat that has probably resulted from generations of trauma. The creation of a place where Jewish people can be safe should never have been necessary, and it shouldn’t have been created at the expense of Palestinians. Jewish people have been victimised and then set up to fail. It’s not yet a failed state, but in terms of morality it has to me massively failed. The victim has become the perpetrator, and that is really sad to see.

Totally agree with all of this.

I hate the world-wide failure to openly condemn what Israel is doing. Anyone who does so is accused of antisemitism and/or not caring about what happened on 7/10.

Is it on its way to becoming one. Going by the ones that have failed no. Israel isnt the same. Who knows how any country might progress to that situation.

Very well said.

No

It’s true that the USA gives vast sums to Israel, initially for economic and military use , but in the last 15+years that money is primarily for military purposes and has to be predominantly spent in the USA (military companies ) so it is mutually beneficial.

No it's a way of congress fleecing the American tax payer and enriching their mates whilst funding another nations military.