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Conflict in the Middle East

Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"

345 replies

TooBigForMyBoots · 03/04/2024 01:01

Netanyahu is destroying Gaza.

The IDF is committing war crimes.
Netanyahu's government has angered, pissed off and disappointed Israeli citizens.
They have disappointed, pissed off and angered Israel's allies.
They are pissing off neighbour states.
The Israeli government and the IDF have created a broken nation of traumatised people.

Right next door.

I fear that Israel will become a failed state.Sad

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LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 14:57

AnnieSnap · 04/04/2024 14:45

Iran, North Korea, Russia, Saudi Arabia. The criteria is that they oppress and kill people without compunction. In Israel’s case, they go further and are bombing and starving an other nation to death.

This is interesting AnnieSnap.

Do Iran, North Korea, Russia, Saudi Arabia "oppress and kill people without compunction" that they are in active conflict with - or do they do it to their own actual citizens whilst not in an active conflict?

So, for example, are all countries at war a Pariah state? Or just Israel?

esta2024 · 04/04/2024 15:10

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 14:53

And Israel is still a free, democratic country. If Palestine makes peace with it, it can be a free, democratic country if it chooses to be.

If you call Hungary/Poland free. It is about as free as that.

Which is freer than most countries in the world but ben Gurion would be rolling in his grave.

I always wonder for israelis(who have other passports) what is the point of it all. You devote your life and energy to defending this country which sends your sons to war, doesn't care about you beyond your ability to produce jewish babies and who is happy to tax you heavily to fund people studying in yeshiva. You end up in your 30s renting and far behind financially relative to your peers in UK/USA/Europe and if you get taken hostage, the government doesn't care enough about you to negotiate properly for a release.

People who defend israel's actions unquestioningly, all that is just a license for the Israeli government to break the social contract with your relatives in Israel to an even greater degree cos the enemy is obviously external.

I can see it clearly only because my relatives in Israel are of limited means so it is clearer to me how crap the whole thing is and how they have basically wasted their 20s and early 30s. It is time they would never get back.

It is a tragedy.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:11

esta2024 · 04/04/2024 14:54

well I am sure singaporeans wouldn't accuse you of being racist if you set up a thread saying- would singapore be a failed state.

It just wouldn't be very convincing as i am not sure what articles by any academics you can find which would propose the possibility of singapore as a failed state in the next 100 years.

I found you quite a few including from haaretz which is an Israeli paper.

Singapore did take good lessons from Israel - in the words of the First PM, Israel trained its army in the early years and we learnt how to be strong but also how not to use their strength. Sometimes a negative role model is as useful as a positive one given that Singapore is also surrounded by less than friendly neighbours.

Edited

Singaporeans haven't been through Millenia of been accused of evil deeds, or endured multiple pogroms, genocides or human rights abuses based on wide-spread belief that their race is uniquely evil and deserving of being wiped off the planet. I observed today several tweets on X rejoicing in the idea of Jews being wiped from existence. I am sure you did not see that about Singaporeans today. Because people do not feel that hostility towards Singaporeans, and they do not make silly threads about them.

When you look at racism, you must look at it through the prism of the victim. For example, Blackface. A deeply insensitive white person (of which there are many) might bemoan being told they can't darken their skin with makeup to portray a Black person. "I wouldn't mind if you did whiteface" they will cry because they cannot show empathy and respect. But of course they are missing that racism and prejudice is always through the prism of it's victim.

I have listened to Black people describe how such behavior makes them feel dehumanised, that it perpetuates harmful racial stereotypes stripping them of their humanity and dignity. I listen when they tell me that, and as such would never do something like that. Even if I personally would not mind my own physical appearance being treated similarly, that does not deny their experience, because my race and identity has not historically been dehumanised in the same way as theirs has and they deserve better.

I struggle with why people seem to have this blind spot surrounding Jews.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:18

esta2024 · 04/04/2024 15:10

If you call Hungary/Poland free. It is about as free as that.

Which is freer than most countries in the world but ben Gurion would be rolling in his grave.

I always wonder for israelis(who have other passports) what is the point of it all. You devote your life and energy to defending this country which sends your sons to war, doesn't care about you beyond your ability to produce jewish babies and who is happy to tax you heavily to fund people studying in yeshiva. You end up in your 30s renting and far behind financially relative to your peers in UK/USA/Europe and if you get taken hostage, the government doesn't care enough about you to negotiate properly for a release.

People who defend israel's actions unquestioningly, all that is just a license for the Israeli government to break the social contract with your relatives in Israel to an even greater degree cos the enemy is obviously external.

I can see it clearly only because my relatives in Israel are of limited means so it is clearer to me how crap the whole thing is and how they have basically wasted their 20s and early 30s. It is time they would never get back.

It is a tragedy.

Edited

Poland and Hungary have very high scores on the freedom index. Poland scores about the same as France. That's very free, as the world goes.

MCOut · 04/04/2024 15:20

This reply has been deleted

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esta2024 · 04/04/2024 15:21

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 15:11

Singaporeans haven't been through Millenia of been accused of evil deeds, or endured multiple pogroms, genocides or human rights abuses based on wide-spread belief that their race is uniquely evil and deserving of being wiped off the planet. I observed today several tweets on X rejoicing in the idea of Jews being wiped from existence. I am sure you did not see that about Singaporeans today. Because people do not feel that hostility towards Singaporeans, and they do not make silly threads about them.

When you look at racism, you must look at it through the prism of the victim. For example, Blackface. A deeply insensitive white person (of which there are many) might bemoan being told they can't darken their skin with makeup to portray a Black person. "I wouldn't mind if you did whiteface" they will cry because they cannot show empathy and respect. But of course they are missing that racism and prejudice is always through the prism of it's victim.

I have listened to Black people describe how such behavior makes them feel dehumanised, that it perpetuates harmful racial stereotypes stripping them of their humanity and dignity. I listen when they tell me that, and as such would never do something like that. Even if I personally would not mind my own physical appearance being treated similarly, that does not deny their experience, because my race and identity has not historically been dehumanised in the same way as theirs has and they deserve better.

I struggle with why people seem to have this blind spot surrounding Jews.

Thats the difference between Singapore and Israel.

Singapore sees itself as a country for all its inhabitants, regardless of race, language and religion, even though the proportion of ethnically chinese citizen is the same as the proportion of Jewish people in Israel- 70%. But it would never call itself a Chinese State. Singapore school children recite daily:
We, the citizens of Singapore, pledge ourselves as one united people, regardless of race, language or religion, to build a democratic society based on justice and equality so as to achieve happiness, prosperity and progress for our nation."

Israel sees itself as a Jewish state but 30% of its inhabitants are not Jewish. This is a problem in a sense that while it was set up to be a Jewish state, this narrative is not conductive to peace in such a volatile region. I am not saying i am against the concept of a Jewish state. But it can be a barrier if the other people see themselves as being oppressed by the Jewish majority or feel that their own interests are not respected.

But thats the thing- nation states are separate from ethnoreligions. Or at least successful nation states should be. The inability to separate the two or at least reconcile the two is problematic for those who do not regard themselves as part of the ethnoreligion.

Blackface is mocking the appearance of black people .Rejecting zionism can be antisemitic if you criticise zionism but sympathise with other movements of ethnocentric self determination. There are definitely people like that, i am not condoning that.

But like i said before, i separate criticism of the country from criticism of an entire people/culture. the latter is definitely not ok.

P3achykeenjellybean · 04/04/2024 15:35

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

This is an outrageous accusation.

MCOut · 04/04/2024 15:39

P3achykeenjellybean · 04/04/2024 15:35

This is an outrageous accusation.

🤷🏿‍♀️

MCOut · 04/04/2024 15:43

That poster is well aware that they are never going to be seen in the same way that Arabs who are considered poc and not white are seen. They are perfectly happy to weaponise that.

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 15:44

A bit off topic, but does anyone know when the last Egyptian royalty were referred to as pharaohs?

Auvergne63 · 04/04/2024 15:46

P3achykeenjellybean · 04/04/2024 15:35

This is an outrageous accusation.

What I find outrageous is to be accused to be anti semitic if I dare criticising the actions of the Israeli government/IDF.
Israel has the right to exist but not to behave like a terrorist state.

P3achykeenjellybean · 04/04/2024 15:46

MCOut · 04/04/2024 15:43

That poster is well aware that they are never going to be seen in the same way that Arabs who are considered poc and not white are seen. They are perfectly happy to weaponise that.

Honestly, just stop! You're making it worse! Those are outrageous accusations and you're just doubling down when you should.be withdrawing your comments and apologising!

MCOut · 04/04/2024 15:52

P3achykeenjellybean · 04/04/2024 15:46

Honestly, just stop! You're making it worse! Those are outrageous accusations and you're just doubling down when you should.be withdrawing your comments and apologising!

Why?

P3achykeenjellybean · 04/04/2024 15:54

MCOut · 04/04/2024 15:52

Why?

Because you've accused someone of a) lying about their ethnicity and b) weaponising their ethnicity.

MCOut · 04/04/2024 15:58

P3achykeenjellybean · 04/04/2024 15:54

Because you've accused someone of a) lying about their ethnicity and b) weaponising their ethnicity.

Please. B I will never apologise for when I think that is the case, and A I never said they were lying, I said they conveniently left out that they are also white. It’s a pet peeve of mine people conveniently rolling out brown as and when they’re called out.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 16:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Excusing myself from what?
Flipping what switch?
I am pretty sure I have always been Middle Eastern, thanks.

stomachamelon · 04/04/2024 16:40

@Scirocco the name 'pharaoh' is linked to ancient Egyptians.

Is Israel on its way to being a "Failed State?"
Scirocco · 04/04/2024 16:41

stomachamelon · 04/04/2024 16:40

@Scirocco the name 'pharaoh' is linked to ancient Egyptians.

Thanks, that's what I thought. Glad to have it confirmed. 👍

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 17:33

esta2024 · 04/04/2024 15:21

Thats the difference between Singapore and Israel.

Singapore sees itself as a country for all its inhabitants, regardless of race, language and religion, even though the proportion of ethnically chinese citizen is the same as the proportion of Jewish people in Israel- 70%. But it would never call itself a Chinese State. Singapore school children recite daily:
We, the citizens of Singapore, pledge ourselves as one united people, regardless of race, language or religion, to build a democratic society based on justice and equality so as to achieve happiness, prosperity and progress for our nation."

Israel sees itself as a Jewish state but 30% of its inhabitants are not Jewish. This is a problem in a sense that while it was set up to be a Jewish state, this narrative is not conductive to peace in such a volatile region. I am not saying i am against the concept of a Jewish state. But it can be a barrier if the other people see themselves as being oppressed by the Jewish majority or feel that their own interests are not respected.

But thats the thing- nation states are separate from ethnoreligions. Or at least successful nation states should be. The inability to separate the two or at least reconcile the two is problematic for those who do not regard themselves as part of the ethnoreligion.

Blackface is mocking the appearance of black people .Rejecting zionism can be antisemitic if you criticise zionism but sympathise with other movements of ethnocentric self determination. There are definitely people like that, i am not condoning that.

But like i said before, i separate criticism of the country from criticism of an entire people/culture. the latter is definitely not ok.

Edited

I am not Israeli, so this has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said and your response completely ignores my point.

However, as you made it, Israel is a multicultural, democratic society but unfortunately unlike Singapore it has always had people on all sides trying to wipe it from existence. Although that is thankfully lessening as it's neighbours move forwards.

Those people wanted to do wipe it from existence because it was Jewish. Those people objected to it's existence because it was Jewish. And not because they wanted "one united people, regardless of race, language or religion, to build a democratic society based on justice and equality". No, they wanted to wipe it from existence because they DIDN'T want those things. They wanted Islamic land ruled for Islam and only that. That was very clearly and openly stated and still is.

The inhabitants of modern Israel arrived back to it's sanctuary in majority due to extreme anti Jewish sentiment in it's surrounding countries. It is not a demonstration of a wish for an exclusive society. It is a demonstration of the necessity of one. My family, for example, in Iraq alone faced Jewish homes being burned down, business confiscated, being banned from doing their jobs, street lynchings of Jews, the Iraqi version of "Hitler Youth" parading the streets and throwing stones at them or spitting, nightly broadcasts of Nazi propaganda translated especially into Arabic and ultimately "zionism" being declared a crime punishable by several years imprisonment and basically every Jew being branded a Zionist. It was batshit crazy!

They didn't go to Israel, they went to Britain, but many did go to Israel because it was the only place there was where Jews would not be ruled over by people who hated them and actively discriminated against them. They were not allowed to live as "one united people, regardless of race, language or religion, to build a democratic society based on justice and equality". In fact, in countries where they had a presence for 2600 years, they were completely wiped from existence and stripped of all their property and nationality.

Then when they got their country, and freedom to live as Jews with Jewish beliefs and Jewish culture and the freedom to form their own government and a country in which they would not be treated as imposters or subordinates, they had the good grace to welcome a population that was 30% NOT Jewish, and unlike their compadres they gave those people equality under law and made them their neighbours. Jews have been ethnically cleansed out of every Arab country more or less.

All that said, none of it would have ever happened if people had allowed them to live as you are fortunate to live in Singapore, equal, and as valuable as those who had a "majority", but that wasn't the choice they were given. Or indeed if other people had not conquered their lands and decided to kill them, kick them out.

This is a classic reversal of reality really. Every country surrounding is a "Muslim" country. That is the only reason a Jewish country is needed. If every surrounding country were a Singapore style democracy where all citizens were equal and Jews were and always had been considered equal and completely valued members of society, then they would not need their own place.

Jews didn't invent the world, and they don't control what every other country does. They have a right to their home, and a right for them to be equals in it. And a right to defend it from people who hate them and wish to deny them their right to life, and to flourish with self determination.

esta2024 · 04/04/2024 17:53

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 17:33

I am not Israeli, so this has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said and your response completely ignores my point.

However, as you made it, Israel is a multicultural, democratic society but unfortunately unlike Singapore it has always had people on all sides trying to wipe it from existence. Although that is thankfully lessening as it's neighbours move forwards.

Those people wanted to do wipe it from existence because it was Jewish. Those people objected to it's existence because it was Jewish. And not because they wanted "one united people, regardless of race, language or religion, to build a democratic society based on justice and equality". No, they wanted to wipe it from existence because they DIDN'T want those things. They wanted Islamic land ruled for Islam and only that. That was very clearly and openly stated and still is.

The inhabitants of modern Israel arrived back to it's sanctuary in majority due to extreme anti Jewish sentiment in it's surrounding countries. It is not a demonstration of a wish for an exclusive society. It is a demonstration of the necessity of one. My family, for example, in Iraq alone faced Jewish homes being burned down, business confiscated, being banned from doing their jobs, street lynchings of Jews, the Iraqi version of "Hitler Youth" parading the streets and throwing stones at them or spitting, nightly broadcasts of Nazi propaganda translated especially into Arabic and ultimately "zionism" being declared a crime punishable by several years imprisonment and basically every Jew being branded a Zionist. It was batshit crazy!

They didn't go to Israel, they went to Britain, but many did go to Israel because it was the only place there was where Jews would not be ruled over by people who hated them and actively discriminated against them. They were not allowed to live as "one united people, regardless of race, language or religion, to build a democratic society based on justice and equality". In fact, in countries where they had a presence for 2600 years, they were completely wiped from existence and stripped of all their property and nationality.

Then when they got their country, and freedom to live as Jews with Jewish beliefs and Jewish culture and the freedom to form their own government and a country in which they would not be treated as imposters or subordinates, they had the good grace to welcome a population that was 30% NOT Jewish, and unlike their compadres they gave those people equality under law and made them their neighbours. Jews have been ethnically cleansed out of every Arab country more or less.

All that said, none of it would have ever happened if people had allowed them to live as you are fortunate to live in Singapore, equal, and as valuable as those who had a "majority", but that wasn't the choice they were given. Or indeed if other people had not conquered their lands and decided to kill them, kick them out.

This is a classic reversal of reality really. Every country surrounding is a "Muslim" country. That is the only reason a Jewish country is needed. If every surrounding country were a Singapore style democracy where all citizens were equal and Jews were and always had been considered equal and completely valued members of society, then they would not need their own place.

Jews didn't invent the world, and they don't control what every other country does. They have a right to their home, and a right for them to be equals in it. And a right to defend it from people who hate them and wish to deny them their right to life, and to flourish with self determination.

Every country surrounding Singapore is also a Muslim country. It was also kicked out of the federation of Malaysia two years after it joined because it didn't want to be a country for the malays (malaysia is still a Muslim country where chinese people are not allowed to own their own businesses and where there are quotas on their admissions to universities). Singapore obviously didn't want that so it rebelled and there were racial riots and long story short, Singapore was kicked out and that was when this pledge was written. Singapore was wholly unprepared for this, joining Malaysia had been a condition of independence from the British and it had no natural resources or food and was dependent on Malaysia for pretty much all water and food. In the early days of its independence, there were even bombing attacks from Indonesia... Singapore could have chosen to not embrace the values of multiculturalism. Even today in Singapore there are ethnic quotas in government housing (where majority of the population lives) so that no ghettos are formed. EID, Diwali, Christmas and Chinese New year are all public holidays and we have four national languages. It is a crime to criticise each other's religion. We speak English as a first language so that we can all communicate with each other. Living together in harmony isn't a given, you have to work at it. Saying its too hard/ the other side is horrible isn't really a good excuse.

I am not denying israel has far more hostile neighbours but there are many ways to solve a problem and going all hard right Jewish nationalist isn't that.
There is much more israel can do to integrate its Arab minority.

mids2019 · 04/04/2024 18:55

@LemonyTicket

Interesting posts and I think we should all be grateful for freedom. Unfortunately freedoms is never free.

I think it fits a narrative to call Israel a failed state (even though it patently is not) as as you allude to Israel is a democracy and conforms to that ideal though in a regional environment that doesn't welcome it. Israel is literally surrounded by totalitarian regimes which are hostile to its existence including Hamas who wish the state not to exist and quite obviously want to destroy its people.

there are values of liberty we is the 'west' share with Israel but the ideal of democracy and liberal values is something that should be aspired to not denigrated with conflating the idea of liberal democracy with colonization.

is real is not a filed state and no one can perceive of it at least here in the UK as being one. Then people who benefit from Israel being portrayed as a 'failed state' are such players as Iran, Hamas, ISIS etc. so why would anyone in the UK wish to bring this up?

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 19:00

TextureSeeker · 04/04/2024 16:03

Should she also add the bit about what Israel does to Palestinian demonstrators?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/06/13/israel-apparent-war-crimes-gaza

HER: I am off to write an article on what Israel does to Palestinian Demonstrators
ME: Maybe include what Hamas does to Palestinian Demonstrators
YOU: Should she also include what Israel does to Palestinian Demonstrators

Ok!

😂

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 19:01

MCOut · 04/04/2024 15:43

That poster is well aware that they are never going to be seen in the same way that Arabs who are considered poc and not white are seen. They are perfectly happy to weaponise that.

Can you explain what you are saying here please?